-------------------- It doesn't get any more serious than a Rhinocerus about to charge your ass. Posts: 1053 | From: Apple Valley, MN | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote: "the responsibility of government for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. it is infact the prime mandate for which governments come into existance"
- winston churchill 1930s
Posts: 2469 | From: Anchorage, AK | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Ah.. I see.. so no pointing fingers at the Publicly elected officials and political oppointees who are in charge of the response... but its "ok" to point fingers at the general public.. especially with regard to race.. education.. and income levels...
Gotcha' just clarifiying... Posts: 2469 | From: Anchorage, AK | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
These people had no choice but to be rescued. If a tornado leveled Eagan, people would be able to walk somewhere, not having to sit on their roofs and wait for a heli.
I think one very critical point as to the failure of the initial evacuation (before the hurricaine) was that even the hospital wasn't evacuated!
The city (and feds) knew that the levees couldn't handle more than a level 3, and this was a 4. They even had mock scenarios just last year of this exact situation. There evacuation plan was to send everyone to the Superdome. Apparently they overlooked the fact that the Superdome could also be under water!
Look at Floridians, how often do they heed the warnings to evacuate?? There are ALWAYS people that stay behind. BUT, never has their been a situation where the city is below sea level and fills in with water with absolutely no where to go.
For the time being, we need to get these people into temporary homes. There was a HUGE fuck up, and I believe we will never know the whole truth of it. This is going to have a HUGE effect on our whole country in the year or two to come and I think we need to start planning on that!
-------------------- Clinton '08!!!! Posts: 211 | From: Shakopee, MN | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I think what many of you haven't mentioned or realized is that these people were told to evacuate to the Superdome and Convention Center. And thats where they went. When the hurricane struck there was something like 10-20 thousand people at these places. So why are we calling these people idiots for doing what they were told. If we were told to go to the MOA by our elected officials because a huge natural disaster might be on the way, a great many of us would do just that, instead of getting in our cars and traveling at our expense hundreds of miles away.
Most of you are likening this to a tornado that wipes out a town, but there was 90,000 square miles destroyed. That's a tornado destruction path the size of Kansas.
The fact that this President still has not taken leadership on the issue is apalling. Blame shifting is something for months or years from now, not 3 days after the hurricane hit. I think this editorial sums up what I feel about the role of this administration.
Editorial: Accountability/Little to be seen on Katrina
Published September 8, 2005
If the human misery that followed Hurricane Katrina has been shocking and painful, the federal government's shifting explanations for its needless severity have been utterly shameful.
That assessment is not part of some political, postdisaster "blame game," but an insistence that accountability for preparing for and responding to a major U.S. disaster be placed squarely where it belongs: the federal government and its emergency-response program, FEMA.
The Bush administration's attempts to shift accountability elsewhere -- first to the victims stuck in New Orleans for not leaving, later to Louisiana officials and "bureaucrats" -- are an appalling use of political tactics in the highly inappropriate realm of human suffering and pain, of lives saved and lives lost.
That realm requires that officials accept responsibility, express true and deep understanding of the dislocation and misery being experienced, and redouble efforts to make up for a sickeningly bungled start.
While efforts have been redoubled, effectiveness is still in question; genuine, deep understanding hasn't been apparent despite two presidential visits to the area. And accountability? Accepting it would involve, at the least, making clear that critical changes will be made, and rolling appropriate heads at FEMA and its umbrella, the Department of Homeland Security.
Instead, the White House organized a PR effort directed by political adviser Karl Rove, master of political attack-machine tactics. The New York Times reported Monday that the administration, alarmed at the potential political fallout of its poor performance, regrouped over the weekend and mapped out its strategy. The plan has rolled out exactly as the Times' report said it would:
Administration officials appearing in public have downplayed the need to quickly assess failures, and have tried instead to discuss what's being done now. To the extent that they -- and allies who appear or write in their stead -- do discuss failures, it is to point the finger at local and state officials or "bureaucrats." Officials doing just that include Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff, whose accountability is right up there with FEMA director Michael Brown's.
These tactics are beyond outrageous. No state, no locality can take the lead in dealing with an emergency like Katrina. That's why FEMA was created. That is why Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared a state of emergency on Friday, Aug. 26, when Katrina was a Category 2 hurricane. It is why the Gulf Coast states requested help from the Pentagon that same day.
It is why the next day, as Katrina was upgraded to Category 3, Blanco asked President Bush to declare a federal state of emergency in Louisiana. It was declared. Thus FEMA had full authority and responsibility from the White House "to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
Over the following week the world watched as an even more powerful Katrina hit on Monday and victims pitifully waited for help without adequate (or often any) food, health care or water. Meager boats rescued a few as doctors pleaded for aid, as newscasters struggled to share the story -- and as ships, trucks and outside aid waited, and waited, for approval to help, frequently thwarted, incredibly, by FEMA.
Exactly what went wrong, in both the planning and the response, must be assessed in short order. The ability of the United States to prepare for and respond to disaster -- whatever the origin -- is vital to its security. No less, it is critical to America's ability to honor its shared values, which include attending to the poor, the sick, the vulnerable -- the very people who suffered most from the government's incompetence last week. Yet the White House delays the reckoning while pointing fingers at others.
Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't turn into a cut and pasting of partison editorials but I guess that's not going to happen.
Point is that NE had a plan to evacuate the city using city busses etc - this was not followed.
And I don't see any "blame shifting" from bush to local levels but the exact opposite. Bush keeps taking about "plenty of time to look into the problems later" - the local and state officials are saying "wasn't my fault - bush didn't help".
Here is my cut and paste of a editorial (lets try to keep the number of these low).
quote:Blame Amid the Tragedy Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?
As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.
The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.
The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.
Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.
The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.
The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.
The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.
posted
Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I could cite failures of a so call "pre bush tainted" FEMA, such as thier abysmal response to numerous other natural disasters Hurricane Floyd for one.
Or further cite inspirational generalizations from history that have only mildly anecdotal bearing on the current problem.
I don't have the time to go site more writing heads or talking heads or any other heads, that only find thier own evidence to support thier pre-existing bias and goals.
We tout that states should be able to make much of thier own laws and decisions on policy within thier borders. Imediate emergency response (read within 48 hours after and before the thing hit) should be handled locally. It takes time to mobilize nation wide response.
Again if there is some failure of government in prevention of this dissaster (levee failure) then fine lets look into that later.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I guess my point is more to do with FEMA than anything else. Still, this week they were not allowing in aid because "contracts were not signed".
I just find it funny that this whole thing is partisan. Lives were lost, this country is extremely vulnerable right now to another attack (terrorists this time), they just watched are country have no ability to protect itself, hurricane season is not even over yet, and we want to wait months or years to figure what went wrong. Well I for one am glad I don't live in a zone where a natural disater could strike, because I have no faith in our government, at any level to provide for my safety, and I guess I will have to wait months or years for a "commission" to figure it out. Something needs to be done quickly to get the "major problems" dealt with. That is responding to a disaster. We have years to place blame.
Here are a couple of excerpts, from FOX NEWS, PLEASE READ FULL ARTICLE TO GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING.
By Wednesday of last week, the Hyatt company had sent food and supplies from its Atlanta and Houston hotels to its hotel in New Orleans. The New Orleans Hyatt is less than half a mile from the convention center, an area of the city local and federal government officials said was inaccessible. Oil companies had sent crews in to begin repairs of rigs and refineries on Monday. Television reporters, news crews, even Harry Connick, Jr. managed to navigate through a city the government said was too perilous for relief efforts.
The New Orleans Times-Picayune noted that by Thursday, WalMart had delivered thirteen trucks of supplies while government bureaucrats were still ringing their hands. By the time the federal government finally marched into New Orleans, the Red Cross had sheltered over 130,000 people, and delivered more than 2.5 million meals. By the time military brigades began rescuing people from rooftops, ordinary citizens had saved thousands with private boats.
While government bureaucrats dawdled, politicians covered their rumps, and partisans played the blame game, civil society — private entities — got to the business of helping people. What's worse, in some cases, government prevented the private dissemination of aid. Wal-Mart had three water trucks in New Orleans almost immediately after the hurricane hit. FEMA turned them away. The Red Cross reported on its website that federal and local officials had barred the organization from actually entering New Orleans. Same with the Salvation Army.
One doctor told the Associated Press, "There are entire hospitals that are contacting me, saying, 'We need to take on patients,' but they can't get through the bureaucracy. The crime of this story is, you've got millions of dollars in assets and it's not deployed. We mount a better response in a Third World country."
In Arkansas, state officials were first told to expect 300 evacuees. Nobody came. Then the state was told to prepare 4,000 meals for a fleet of buses. No buses arrived. Suddenly, in the wee hours of Sunday, more than 9,000 refugees showed up at a National Guard post. “It rained people on us,” said Gov. Mike Huckabee, a Republican.
In West Virginia, Gov. Joe Manchin dispatched several planes to the South to ferry refugees to his state. Most of the aircraft sat empty until he ordered them back home in frustration. “The waste that goes on because of a lack of coordination ... ,” he said. Too angry to finish that sentence, Manchin spit out a new one: “To bring five planes back empty is a crying shame.”
In New Mexico, Gov. Bill Richardson said he authorized National Guard troops to leave for New Orleans early last week, but paperwork delayed their departure for days.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Truth is FEMA has very little power in the big picture. I think what's going to come out of this is that the Dept. of Homeland Security should probably not be in change of FEMA when disasters like this occur. That chart Brad posted below is from 2001 before all the changes were made. And the head of FEMA is probably going to get the axe since he didn't react fast enough.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
The first article you cited wasn't "facts" it was an opinion piece just like the one I followed it up with. At this point there aren't many sources for "facts" until a indepentent panel looks into the matter.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
The first article you cited wasn't "facts" it was an opinion piece just like the one I followed it up with. At this point there aren't many sources for "facts" until a indepentent panel looks into the matter.
Scott and I obviously are saying the same thing. NOBODY cane site facts as to allocating and anylizing accountability for the less than desirable emergency response at this time.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I again am trying to relate the FACTS, that story after story is coming out about how aid was either turned away because of beauracacy or we were lied to and told that help could not get in, but Hyatt eveacuated there employees, who were located across the street. Yet again, I come back to:
Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
On a more important note, there will be a drive for NEW clothing and non-perisible food at the building Brad works in starting tomorrow (county rd 42 and hwy 13). Weekdays 4-8 and all day on the weekends. I think the very least we can do is donate clothes to the people who may (if they're lucky) have a small bag of clothing left to their name. The drive is being handled by the Red Cross and will be shipped down south to be disbursed to those who need it
-------------------- Clinton '08!!!! Posts: 211 | From: Shakopee, MN | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I'm not trying to place blame on any one person or organization. I think it was a fuck up from bottom to top. But when the bottom realized they were way in over their heads and begged and pleaded for help on TV, where was Bush (vacation) where was Cheney (vacation), National Guard, any help from the National Level?
I think most realize that the bottom leadership fucked up, but to have virtually no response from the federal level because of red tape is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with extremely quickly. What is going to happen if a major earthquake strikes next week. There is no advanced warning, we need plans in action now!!!
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Fine, call it a fact that the Red Cross was turned back because of a beauracacy. But then it's not fair to go on and say that happened because of Bush etc. We don't know at this point whos beauracacy was to blame. You can site all the New York Times editorials you want that blame Bush, but you can't call them facts.
quote:Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
I like the quote but whom are you directing it at? There are some officals blaming people currently but I don't think its the same people you are referring to.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The fact may be that some help and aid was turned away. BUT the facts as to why are certainly not known, nor can be proven. It is only biased conjecture to say it is due to partisan burocracy, red tape, or dysfunction.
One might recall what happend to hundreds of helpful citzens, and emergency personel who went charging into two certain tall buildings in new york after they were hit by aircraft.
Any individual or aid organizational help could have gone in there got themselves into a situation they could not have gotten out of and be another peorson for the military and FEMA to have to go rescue, even Harry Connick Jr.
This is only another THEORY. The reson could very well be burocracy but it might just be cautious prudence.
There is only so much we can prepare for prior to an event. Only so many things we can model and drill for. What if an asteroid the size of iowa hits the USA? How do you propose we prepare for that? Christ we only see those things after they have near missed us!
Many things could have been done beter obviously. Bush has to depend on those responsible for this sort of thing. Saying he is somehow more accountable being on vacation (and still working 12+ hours a day) than he would be otherwise is again, stupid bickering, that acomplishes nothing.
posted
I think a situation assessment and possible slower response and resuce is more prudent than a blind charging in and underestimating the danger of a situation thus causing more casualties and problems.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Yes we need plans in case of catostophic events, but like what I said before to Joe and Chad has just re-iterated, you can't plan for every possible, maybe, can happen in 10,000 years event. The other issue is that as much as we want to plan, you really can't as each event is different from second to second. Think of how different 9-11 would have been if the towers had not collapsed (1000's of more people alive), or the levees didn't break (1,000's of more people alive). We have no idea of the full extent of any disaster until after it occurs. Everyone wanted relief immediately after this disaster and expected to have a plan in place, understandable, but you can't plan 100% for an outcome that you don't know. Just think if the levees didn't break and their was just slight flooding in NO. Everyone would be bitching at the Fed governement, had they has planned for the worst possible disaster in US history for this Hurricane, for waisting money and effort on such a minor event and taking our focus away from world conflicts. I understand that in some eyes, no one is taking accountablility, but if you want accountability to have a focus, you need to start at the rock bottom. Not the Goverment bottom, the human chain bottom. People themselves had the responsibility to get out, due to their resources or choices they couldn't do it themselves, they then tried to get it at the state level, the state level couldn't get it, so then it went to the Federal level. Since their is no one else to blame, people are saying the accountability is on the Fed Gov. "They didn't move fast enough after the Hurricane, they didn't reinforce the levee, they didn't try to reduce the poverty level in NO so these people had the means to get out." I am a firm believer in controlling your own destiny. Everyone wants the government out of their lives, except when they get in a situation like this... then the government should be accountable for everyone? Posts: 109 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
There is one other proven fact. When drilling for this EXACT situation 1 year ago. 1/3 of the population of neworleans said they would not evacuate in the event of a real call for evacuation.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I think what you guys like to hear is "Bush is to blame". When Joe and I and maybe some other left-leaning individuals who read this group are stating that government has failed at multiple levels. A democratic government in LA, a republican government in MS and a republican government in the White House. Bush is not to blame. But when a natural disaster occurs, show some leadership, get off your ass at some rally for medicare and show this country you care about people.
What happened to "Compassionate Conservatism"?
Compassionate Conservatism
"I call my philosophy and approach compassionate conservatism. It is compassionate to actively help our fellow citizens in need. It is conservative to insist on responsibility and results. And with this hopeful approach, we will make a real difference in people's lives." President George W. Bush
Not cutting his vacation short and at a minimum responding and assuring the citizens of these states that we are going to help immediately, shows NO compassion for mankind. And in his own words, we must insist on responsibility and results. Take some responsibility and at least say, we the federal government along with the other organizations and local government, messed up. Now let's fix the problem.
Like I said before, I am not blaming Bush himself, but he is/was part of the problem. He has been a strong leader on foreign issues, ("stay the course"), why does he have problems being a strong, caring leader here in America. Lead by example. If the President seems to lack a sense of urgency or action, why would his subordinates feel or sense that they need to be urgent likewise. Top-down management. Show some leadership.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I agree with you multiple parties are "to blame" for the response. City, State, Federal, and individuals are to blame. Your posts while not specifically stating Bush is the most to blame do point in that direction. I am trying hard to withhold my judgement until we know more.
And please stop with the whole Bush was on vacation BS. Do you know that at Bush's Texas ranch there is a fully functional "western whitehouse" setup? He isn't really on vacation he works all day.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Yeah, but he wasn't in Texas. He was at a medicare rally in AZ and then he flew to San Diego and had a rally with the "Greatest Generation" on a warship. I guess, I would think something like a natural disaster happening the day before would be more important than pushing your medicare agenda.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Please then try and justify (explain away) his damage control speach where he says... and I quote "george bush today (sept 1, 2005) on good morning america.
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
hello??? Since 9/11.. it was listed as one of the top 3 potential vulnerablities to national security outside another attack on New York, and a massive quake in Cali...
Prior to that.. the Army Corp of Engineers has repeatedly asked for funding to renovate the levee's going back for 3 admins ....so I fully admit.. it does transcend his admin... but then again.. all I've heard since 9/11 is how we're sooooo much safer now because of this admin... that thank good georgie boy is in charge and not some bleeding hart...
What does he do with the situational reports from the Dept. of Homeland security.. wipe his ass??? because he obviously hasnt read them....
Once again.. devils in the details.. details that are ignored unless they further personal ideological agendas...
I'm looking at one instance here.. specific instances tied to response (and prevention here to a certain degree).. It does not mean there are not other levels of accountability...
Sorry for expecting a little more from the POTUS.. like actually checking his facts before running to the cameras for damage control and a photo op.. Posts: 2469 | From: Anchorage, AK | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
That certainly was a stupid thing to say. I have to give you that.
Honestly this more than anything will either turn the whole country against him or define his legacy for the better. He still has an oportutnity to show true leadership on this one.
Imediate response may not be his fault. But, how it is handled from this point forward or maybe a few days ago forward is what will detiermine things. Also the investigations of the problems we all know happend.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
True. I think what will come out of this is Bush received bad info the first couple days. As we have all noticed since last Friday the relief efforts have been going very well I believe. There are still issues with all the agencies working together but shit is getting done. It's really hard for me to believe that Bush would ignore a national disaster if he had good info. I remember last Wednesday even the media wasn't reporting it like it turned out. Hell the govenor still wasn't asking for specific responces yet.
Bush said it best "the relief efforts so far have been unacceptable" - I bet behind closed doors he was really pissed at the info he had been getting and how it turned out.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Look at it this way, if you remember as i do watching the news after the hurrican had passed there was no indication of any levee failure that day or into the night. I do not think it was until the next day that neworleans even started to flood. Thus at that point it was not NEARLY the rescue response emergency the day of the storm (the storm hit land in the morning), as it was after flooding began in NO.
I even remenber watching tv reporters standing in the streets of neworleans touting a near miss for the city and that the levees were hodling at that time. This was in the late afternoon after the storm passed. Those same streets were not under water for another 24 hours. Thus the flooding problem arose almost a full day after the storm hit. And the true crisis didnt arise until that time. Before that it was just alot of property damage and 110 dead in Mississipi, but a sigh of relief for having "missed" NewOrleans.
This may be what he was refering to. His assessment may have been more reffering to "well we thought it had missed neworleans enough to not cause the storm surge and rising waters that would break the levees. Honestly I give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in that regard. It was still a stupid thing for a man whom is the single most sought after target to take quotes out of context to say.
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: It was still a stupid thing for a man whom is the single most sought after target to take quotes out of context to say.
Now that's funny
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: I even remenber watching tv reporters standing in the streets of neworleans touting a near miss for the city and that the levees were hodling at that time. This was in the late afternoon after the storm passed. Those same streets were not under water for another 24 hours. Thus the flooding problem arose almost a full day after the storm hit. And the true crisis didnt arise until that time. Before that it was just alot of property damage and 110 dead in Mississipi, but a sigh of relief for having "missed" NewOrleans.
What I find odd is that I read in the Star Tribune, a full day before landfall taht the eye of the hurricane was projected to pass over New Orleans and even if it missed the city would be underwater. When I woke up the next morning I rushed to see what had happened and was surprised to see that New Orleans was okay, at the time. But, if I, living in Minnesota, knew that New Orleans was predicted to be a disaster area a full day before, why did the people down there not know?
Food for thought.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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Corrected my post below. My point was i do not think the crisis in NO was nearly as bad day of hurrican after it passed as it was 24-48 hours later. The real crisis of human life was then not the day of the storm.
Posts: 2331 | From: Rosemount | Registered: Mar 2001
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-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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Anyone with XM Radio I encourage you to tune into XM248 Redcross Radio. Very interesting info. A collections of press briefings and local info - no editorials like CNN or FNC.
Posts: 5484 | From: St. Paul, Mn | Registered: Apr 2002
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I was rambling at the time and just typed whoever popped up in my mind.
-------------------- "Rarely has it been so clear how much we, the ordinary people of this country, are better than our rulers. I hope that lesson is not lost on anyone, of any political persuasion." Posts: 520 | From: Shakopee, MN USA | Registered: May 2002
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