I'm surprised you guys haven't said anything on this considering the discussion points.
Anyway, 3,000 refugees are on their way to Camp Ripley this week, and the State Patrol has requested 40 Troopers to go help police them (along with the National Guard). And Tiff was picked.
Should be pretty exciting, and I'm glad we're able to help, but I certainly hope these punks don't try and take advantage of the situation of someone helping them out...
And, if anyone's ever been to Camp Ripley, you know what's right outside the main gate...I hope that base is locked down...
Posted by BoondockSaint (Member # 67) on :
Also, my company alone raised $32,000 and our Nebraska crew drove 8 trucks/trailers full of supplies down there this weekend.
Another trip is being planned for this weekend.
Pretty impressive considering we only have 250 employees to start with...
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Other than dissabled vets this was the first time I directly contributed money to something.
There is a direct link to donate on the Red Cross' website where the funds only go to the Hurricane relief fund.
I will say that this has spawned a shameless class warefare debate and entitlement mentality that could span alot of negative effects in this country. I can't imagine dealing with what they are dealing with so I take the quotes from the people down there with a grain of salt. But, the entitlement attitutde is beyond belief in this country. Democracy will die when it's people in too many numbers take from the common good more than they contribute....history has proven that...
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
I blame the last three admins for not dealing with the levee problem... But the previous 2 admins didnt have the backdrop of 9/11 either....
Im not placing blame due to the weather, or even prediction.. just the piss poor planning and response.. which IMO is very telling of the priorities of this admin...
I blame this administration for being mired in "group-think".. and its been my opinion since watching the first term, that this adminstration, and Bush in particular, has a overwhelming disdain for "the govt" as a whole... His father.. I have oodles of respect for.. lifelong public servant.. regardless of our political differences... Jr... well.. shortsighted ingorant numbskull...
They want to turn the govt into a corporation.. and while there may be lessons for the govt to learn from the private sector, they are not the same... and should not be treated as such... I've watched as this admin (I'm talking the admin.. not the GOP as a whole) has blindly tweaked every level of DOI and DOA.... for what... to benefit the few... elite corp interest... This tweaking of something they didnt understand (or care to) in the first place will have repercussions for generations.... all for the sake of short term profits for a few interests....
Now we're seeing what happens when the tweaked FEMA (see gutted) in the wake of 9/11... This in tern resulted in the departure of the previous head a FEMA, a very well respected man who had worked for both previous admins and was a key player in the quality of FEMA respons's prior to this event...
Seems this last part has been a common trend with this admin... Someone who knows their job dares to disagree with the admin, or point out what they NOT considering, and in one way, shape, or form we loose their expertiece and just quality managment for lesser, inferior, appointees....
Total result of group think.. Not the first time its happend at the POTUS level..... See JFK and the Bay of Pigs debacle vs the Cuban Missle Crisis...
This admin is a menace.
quote:george bush today (sept 1, 2005) on good morning america.
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
as well as the fact that bush cut 7 percent of the budget from the army corps of engineers this year, 13 percent last year. this disaster as well as a san fransisco earthquake and a major terrorist attack in new york are the top 3 things our government was told to take action on.
After reading this I immediately remembered that the bush administration line oft repeated by many of them in the wake of 9/11 was that "no one could have anticipated that terrorists would turn airplanes into missles by flying them into buildings" but in reality both the fbi and cia had indeed theorized about the possibility early in the clinton years.
quote: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." -- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.
quote: "This is horrible, terrible and devastating," says Claude Strauser, who retired in January from the Army Corps of Engineers. "But everybody knew it was vulnerable."
computer models showed that the levees and flood walls guarding the city would be overwhelmed by even a Category 3 hurricane they were designed to withstand.
quote: For all the president’s statements ahead of the hurricane, the region seemed woefully unprepared for the flooding of New Orleans—a catastrophe that has long been predicted by experts and politicians alike. There seems to have been no contingency planning for a total evacuation of the city, including the final refuges of the city’s Superdome and its hospitals. There were no supplies of food and water ready offshore—on Navy ships for instance—in the event of such flooding, even though government officials knew there were thousands of people stranded inside the sweltering and powerless city.
I believe and hope that this will be a catalyst for the majority of this country to stop the petty ideological powerstruggle and at least move slightly more toward pragmatic, realistic planning and problem solving... And by planning I mean FORCE the politicians to start looking beyond their next term...
Flame away....
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
I will not respond to any "blaming" comments until the results of the 25 "commissions" now being considered are published. We simply don't know enough about the situation at this point to jump to conclusions. A lot of people fucked up is all I can say - including the citizens of New Orleans for not leaving, the Mayor of New Orleans for not issuing an manditory order to get out, the Governor for not handing the situation over to the feds, and the Bush administration (FEMA etc) for acting 24 hours later then they should have.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
One could argue that we deserve everything we got for building maintaining a city that exists below sea level as New Orleans does and its very existince as we now know (and many people knew before) relied on an intricate, expansive system of unavoidably vulnerable levies. For god sakes if they lost power for more than a couple weeks the same thing would have happened as they rely on pumps in such great capacity.
If a storm that "missed" hadn't caused it now, imagine what some well placed C4 by any terrorist organization in the world would have done (no evacuation warning). And no amount of leve improvments could avoid a well designed attack to do so. Much easier planned and executed than flying airliners into buildings.
I am one of those people who is frustrated with the way this country is going, but i do not belive for a second that the fault lies squarly or even mostly with one man.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
I actually sympathize with the argument that most of these people did not have the resources to leave. If that is the case. But I do not think all of them had this problem, as proven by the cars floating outside the front doors as they are sitting on the roof.
I do think the mayor and gov are doing alot of yelling and finger pointing on radio etc for as busy as they should be... like the mayor blaming bush for lack of governmental leadership in the face of this disaster then using the rudy guliani after 9/11 as a good example who happend to be the mayor of new york.
[ 09-06-2005, 13:15: Message edited by: Chadwick ]
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
I DEFINETLY AGREE we need to stop worring about and spending so much time debating crap like abortion and gay marrage, for fuck's sake! Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Sorry.. not blame... accountability.. and I said "administration" not one man.. but that one man has chosen to surround himself with a bunch of ideological "yes" men.. (with a few exceptions) hence the group think mentality, instead of challenging his ideology by pushing for diversity within his admin.. The few token "fringe" thinkers that have been brought in.. have since left.. Christine Todd Whitman & Powell to name a few...
But yes.. I think he's a failure... I wont even start the thread.. but he broke my final straw a few weeks ago when he came out and openly admitted he doenst have the foggiest idea how to distinguish between Legit Science and matters of faith (see all the I.D. nonsense.. the continuing dumbing down of 'Merica )
23% of the population lived below the poverty level... Thats a staggering percentage.. the poorest of the poor.. As I believe the mayor put it.. we failed those in need who needed it most...
Imagine it being August 24th.. You have your rent money.. say $600.. $1000 if your lucky.. and this comes along...
They're not foreign to hurricanes.. they know the risks.. but they've survived them before.. Your not talking about the most intellectually astute demographic either.... So do you risk that money.. do you drive 200 miles inland.. (to where?) assuming you have a vehicle to make the trip.. and blow your rent on a hotel for a few days.. and what.. wait it out... then what.. if your wrong.. no rent... I'm not making excuses.. just some perspective....everyone lives beyond their means in some situs.. we're all guilty of it...
Yes.. the Mayor and Gov should of stepped up and done more as the final hours came closer.. but without massive Aid from the Fed level... a state like this just doesnt have the resources to handle a evac of this magnitude.. much less the aftermath.... And the reality is.. (see my links) because this was KNOWN to be one of the biggest potential disasters that could happen here..I put more responsibility on the Fed level than the state and local..
And now we have our own palistine (meaning approx 1million refugees).. and what will the long term effects be here...??? Its not like the majority of the displaced are skilled workers.. who can compete in other cities job markets.. their the poorest of the poor...those that can move on will.. those that could avoid the storm did for the most part...
I think there will be long term consequences that just cant be visualized yet...
[ 09-06-2005, 13:52: Message edited by: Jomama ]
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Agreed on most points BUT!
I have a huge problem with poverty "level" statistics in this country. Why? Much of the poor in this country have it better than the middle class in most countries. Living in subsidiesed single family homes with more than 2000 Fsqft. Two cars, multiple computers and color televisions, full cupboards all the time.
In otherwords there are LOTS of statistically "empoverished" people in this country that live better than I do....
This is not to say that many of the people down there are not in very dire straits.
I also doubt that the majority of these people did not have relatives to go live with.
[ 09-06-2005, 14:12: Message edited by: Chadwick ]
Posted by Trany (Member # 31) on :
This is a whole line of fuck ups, starting with the ignorant citizens, to the mayor, the Gov, the feds and FEMA. I think rather then blame people now we should work on stabilizing the levee and pumping the flooded city. The aftermath of this must lead to better preparedness from every party from the citizen to FEMA. This was an absolute logistics and plan fucked up from the get go. There should have been a order to evacuated, and a line of buses and transports heading out of the city. Just fix the problem then you can all play the blame game, Bush did this or didn't it's all irrelevant at this point.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Stats I read this morning:
315,568 Louisiana households had registered for temporary housing 140,000 to 160,000 homes had been submerged or destroyed 530 sewage treatment plants were inoperable 3 of the city's 148 pumps - each capable of pumping 4,600 cubic feed per second - were operational 41,000 National Guard members and 17,000 active-duty troops
Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
I can't believe I am saying this, but I have to agree with Trany (I know this will come back on haunt me someday). Everyone needs to stop playing the Monday morning quarterback and just fix the problem that has occured. So many people have used this disaster to plug thier own political agenda that it is absolutely sick! A Hurricane is not about politics, it's a natural disaster not caused by any one person, group, etc. If everyone would just stop pointing fingers, maybe the rebuilding and clean up will happen much faster and the people who need the help can get it. I don't know if this is a news flash, but you can't plan for every possible disaster that can happen in the United States and world wide. Everyone barely wants to pay the tax dollars that they do, only imagine if we needed to plan for an alien attack like in "War of the Worlds" that might some day (one in a billion years) come and destroy the US. (ok.. far fetched, but you get the point) We would be spending all our money/effort on something that could possibly happen some day all to be able to say... well we planned for it. Get over it, stop pointing fingers, and in Trany's words "just fix the problem"
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kitty: A Hurricane is not about politics,
It is when you have an administration that is altering the way the govt operates internally like NEVER has been seen in U.S. History.. The response is definitly tied to politics... I'm not just talking efficency here.. There are places that need to improve govt efficiency. But you can only "streamline" so much before it becomes blind gutting... I see it with my own eyes each day from the fed level on down.
When you see how FEMA has previously responded over the years.. VS. this.. something has changed.. and not for the better...
quote:.In June (2004), Pleasant Mann, a 16-year FEMA veteran who heads the agency's government employee union, wrote members of Congress to warn of the agency's decay. "Over the past three-and-one-half years, FEMA has gone from being a model agency to being one where funds are being misspent, employee morale has fallen, and our nation's emergency management capability is being eroded," he wrote. "Our professional staff are being systematically replaced by politically connected novices and contractors."
edit** I am in no way saying the the Gov of LA and Mayor of N.O. should not be accountable as well, as I think they made some really poor decisions about evacuations... There is a really telling picture of a fleet of school bus's left to be flooded out? Why were they not used? etc..
But that does not mean that the issues at the Fed lvl should be excused...
[ 09-07-2005, 08:23: Message edited by: Jomama ]
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
This is what is sad about our country. People are never happy with the way the government does anything! (Democrate, Republican, etc.) First is that we are not saving our environment enough (no oil drilling in Alaska), then it was that we did not put enough money towards defending ourselves against terriorist (9-11), now it's that we didn't secure a levvy enough for a category 5 Hurricane (Katrina), next it will be that we didn't spend enough money finding our own natural resources for gasoline/oil as the prices are continuing to go up(going against the first issue), probably following that when California falls off the face of the planet due to a huge Earthquake, people will blame the government for not finding a way to secure their landmass to the rest of the US. No matter what any government does or president, every problem in American Society is going to be blammed on the Federal government. Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Not what I'm saying at all Kitty.. but oh well...
Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
quote:Everyone barely wants to pay the tax dollars that they do, only imagine if we needed to plan for an alien attack like in "War of the Worlds" that might some day (one in a billion years) come and destroy the US. (ok.. far fetched, but you get the point) We would be spending all our money/effort on something that could possibly happen some day all to be able to say... well we planned for it. Get over it, stop pointing fingers, and in Trany's words "just fix the problem"
Thats an unrealistic scenario, although possible. The difference between that and what happened with this hurricane is that the hurricane disaster was VERY realistic, and even predictable by anyone who has half a brain. People saw this coming based on the quality of the levees. So, as soon as it was predicted that a cat 5 hurricane was due to hit land near New Orleans about 2 days beforehand, that part of the country should have been in an absolute state of emergency as if a nuclear bomb was about to hit. They wernt. The fact is that the federal governemnt took absolutely no action to prepare for this situation in anticipation of the distruction, and that is an unbelievible fuck up. Not only did they not prepare, but it took them 2 fucking days to organize a response.
The property damage is going to hurt, and the economy will suffer reguardless of what the federal government does or who is in office. But, the loss of life could have been reduced considerably if we didnt have our heads up our asses.
Let the impeachments begin.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Check your facts Ender. Everyone took action. Was it enough or in time - no. Fed/Local/State did take action before the storm hit.
Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
quote:now it's that we didn't secure a levvy enough for a category 5 Hurricane (Katrina),
I dont think thats what alot of people are complaining about in this situation, Kitty. Rather, they are complaining about the lack of anticipation based on the knowledge that those levees would not withstand a storm they KNEW was going to hit that area and what the results would be. The federal govenment did absolutely nothing before the storm hit, and what the state did do was inadequate in that they didnt take this seriously enough and tell people to get the fuck out or your gonna die.
[ 09-07-2005, 09:16: Message edited by: Ender ]
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Check your facts Ender. The federal government didn't do "absolutley nothing" to prepare. Until a independent report is released it's not fair to make that statement.
Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by Klaus: Check your facts Ender. Everyone took action. Was it enough or in time - no. Fed/Local/State did take action before the storm hit.
Are you kidding me? The troops that are there now should have already been organized and refugee camps should have already been set up before the storm even hit. Why wernt they? Well, probibly because the goventment saw taking those preperations as a considerable cost of money and didnt want to over commit resources until they knew what kind of devastation they were dealing with. Once they realized the extent of the destruction (something they should have already known would happen) they said "oh fuck, what do we do now? we didnt plan for this."
The fact that there was no federal help present in the first 2 full days of the aftermath is bullshit and no excuse can be made for that.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Check your facts Ender. There were federal "troops" (red cross etc) in the area positioned outside the area. The governeror was in charge of the situation until 2 days after the storm hit.
Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by Klaus: Check your facts Ender. There were federal "troops" (red cross etc) in the area positioned outside the area. The governeror was in charge of the situation until 2 days after the storm hit.
Which is a joke, that the governer was in charge. And I know my facts: the only red cross people that were in place in the area during the first couple days were local and the numbers were in the hundreds, not thousands. Are you saying having those people in the area was sufficient preparation? Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
"The federal govenment did absolutely nothing before the storm hit" Your statement, not mine. Just correcting you.
Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by Klaus: "The federal govenment did absolutely nothing before the storm hit" Your statement, not mine. Just correcting you.
They might as well have done nothing. Wouldnt have changed much.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kitty: Get over it, stop pointing fingers, and in Trany's words "just fix the problem"
Excuse me.. but this is a complete oxymoron..
How can you possibly "fix the problem" if we cannot assess and generaly pinpoint fault & accountability that was responsible for the problem in the first place????
What?
More blind reorginization?
Blind tinkering?
More group-think, where we pull some plan out of our ass, without looking at "what has happened before", throw it out there and tout it as "better" just to be able to stand in front of a camera and pat each others back and suck each others dicks while saying.. "see we fixed it... it will be better now"..
This is the problem and results of those who dont look at the details of nuance... This is what results from running govt with a black-&-White attitude....
quote: "The key to intelligent tinkering is to keep all the parts." - Aldo Leopold
IMO.. this Admin (and some state admins like it) lets its personal agenda, and blind disdain for the govt and the people who comprise the govt, cloud their ability to objectively utilize the benefits of Hindsight to progressively move forward and "fix" what has been deemed to be broken... But what do I know.. I just work here..
[ 09-07-2005, 09:28: Message edited by: Jomama ]
Posted by Mikey (Member # 42) on :
Ok, I have remianed silent long enough.
Ender, I feel the need to respond to you first. The first step for the federal and state agencies in an event such as this is to get as many of their resources OUT of the area quickly. Don't forget what started this was a Hurricane with sustained winds of 160mph. Setting up camps of troops and moving rescue equipment into the area ahead of time would have made the situation 1000% worse and probably delayed their response considerably. You said it took them 2 days to respond. I am assuming you are basing this on what you have seen on CNN or something. This is also completely false. There were enormous preparations taking place several days before the hurricane hit land. Also don't forget that NO was not the only place hit by this. There were numerous coast gaurd choppers and other federal search and rescue resources there on Wed. 1 day after the levy broke. Many of them were pulled out of the area late Wed. and Thur. as the mass looting and shooting at them started by the mobs. I think what many of you are overlooking is that there was a significant portion of the population in NO that WANTED to stay and take advantage of the situation by looting. As early as Wed. afternoon "federal" resources attemting to make food and water drops were met with gunfire. Many of the police resources on the ground were either low of OUT of ammunition on Thurs. My point is that much of the "delayed" resonse that many speak of is directly due to the chaos that was tatically created by the remaining residents. Also, it was no secret for at least 2 days that Katrina was going to hit NO. The residents there should have had at least 3 days worth of food, water and essential medicine. No matter how poor you are 3 days of food and water is not too much to ask.
Next Joe. It came to no surprise to any of us on this board that you would take advantage of this event of great human suffering to bash the Bush "Administration". That's all I have to say about that.
It is my understanding of most disaster plans ( and I have read quite a few in the MPLS area) that the Federal role is that of long term support. The real Federal test will be what happens to the refugees over the next months.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mikey:
Next Joe. It came to no surprise to any of us on this board that you would take advantage of this event of great human suffering to bash the Bush "Administration". That's all I have to say about that.
Ah.. so I'm not allowed to be critical... ?? and because I'm crititcal of the response..?? I somehow dont comprend the magnitude of the suffering or the realities of what these people are going thru.. Please.. spare me...
You assume my motives are political.. Ok whatever..
I would criticize any administration that functions remotely like this one.. I have no party affiliation... An I will criticize anything I view as underminding to the greater good.. I dont just reserve my criticizims to blowjobs in the whitehouse..
Like I said.. Some of what I see.. particularly at the fed level is the results of Group-think.
If your a liar and fool.. your a liar and a fool.. I dont care what party your in...
I'm also a certified SARTECH II have been a functional componet to ICS command structure for a variety of different SAR missions.. I do have better than a laymans understanding of whats required for a entity to "respond" to crisis.. we dont train for this magnitude of course.. but my critique is not one of a layman..
The fellow who Bush appointed to FEMA has mediocre (and thats being nice) at best credentials for being the Head of an angency with the responsibilites that FEMA has..
Overall...this has been a large contributer to the group-think mentality of this admin.. His appointments reak of favoritism over substance.. sorry.. the resumes dont lie... Many of this admins political appointees do NOT have the credentials for the positions they're given..
and we're reaping what they've sown...
[ 09-07-2005, 11:39: Message edited by: Jomama ]
Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
Joe, you are right, you can't fixed the problem without knowing what went wrong, but we know what went wrong already. A Hurricane hit a city that was not prepared for a Category 5 Hurricane. Whether it was the levee breaking, people not being evacuated (whether by economic circumstances or plain stupidity), or a combination of a bunch of things, we know this is/was the problem. Pointing fingers at who's fault it is right now will not solve the problem, only prolong the efforts to get it under control. Do you seriously think that by pointing to one of three government officals who "screwed up" is needed to get the city unflooded and cleaned up? No. Blocking the levvy and pumping the water out so they can clean up the city is what's needed. Once again. Get over it, stop pointing fingers, and just fix the problem. Yes... in this case they are going to look back and say "what did we learn from this", but to my point before. We cannot plan for every possible disaster that might occur at some point in time. But hell, were American's, let's just blame the government since no one wants to take responsibility for not getting out, living in a flood plane, or pushing the government to enforce the levee which was already enforced once.
Luke, as to the government doing nothing... That's complete bullshit. 1. It was the President who initiated the evacuation orders and fed. disaster declaration, not the other way around-- Governor Bianco herself admitted this! She didn't ask for help until it was too late, after the levee had broke and the city flooded. 2. New Orleans was classified as a disaster zone before the hurricane even hit. Navy and coastgard ships were following right behind the Hurricane to provide relief. They were helping before the red cross could even get mobilized after the storm. Sorry, but I wouldn't put my ass in front of a storm either. What good are you at saving anyone else if you are dead. 3. The city (who's responsibility it is) didn't even attempt to offer transportation for their poor during their initial evac process, which, ignore the pun, was piss poor in my opinion. Those are the majority of the people who we are trying to save now. If they would have been evacuated before the storm, things would not look so bad. The Fed can't come in until the Gov asks, which was, once again, after the levee broke.
I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just unpointing a few of them. Overall, I think everyone needs to stop blaming and start fixing. Their is plenty of time for blame later.
If you guys want to know about what went wrong and who to blame I just saw that Fox has a story at 5:00 ET tonight dsicussing just that if you are interested.
Posted by Trany (Member # 31) on :
Thats it, I am going to go poop in the Mississippi and help expidite the suffering and death, one poo at a time.
Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
Trany... Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Dont get me wrong.. A lot of folks will abuse this opportunity.. A LOT... the vultures are everywhere... Klauso--> Geraldo on O&A just shameless.. But that doesnt take from what I view is the underlying problem. We'll see if I'm in any way vidicated..
Doesnt change that I see a lessening of our govt to cope with certain expectations, and I attribute it to changes being made at the functional level.. You can read about these changes yourself.. each day.. in any number of sources that will follow the doings of legislatures and agencies nationwide...
Edit*** I should clarify.. the "changes" I'm speaking of are largely the result of an arguably insideous way of making changes that doesnt require the exectutive branchs to have legislative approval.
[ 09-07-2005, 12:48: Message edited by: Jomama ]
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Yeah, Geraldo on Fox News was a piece of work..... crying and holding babies lol. Entertaining but way overboard.
Posted by Trany (Member # 31) on :
Donk, should I flush every toilet a few extra times to send some more ecoli tainted water their way?
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
These "officials" need to start working together. Earlier today the Mayor of NO issued a manditory evacuation of the remaining residents. This included force to be used against anyone that refuses to leave. I just listened to the Goveror say she will not order force to be used and that the Mayor dosen't have the authority to order it. She wants more tests on the toxic water before asking people to leave.......... She says the remaining people have been through enough and shouldn't be asked to leave. If shes not careful she will be responsible for more deaths.
Posted by BoondockSaint (Member # 67) on :
Nice post Kitty. I thought you hated W?
Good arguments all around.
I for one am trying to get past the fact that they had ample warning and am trying to focus on the now (i.e. fixing what's broken not worrying about why it broke or who didn't fix it before it broke or who took too long to start fixing it after it broke)
I mean, if they told me that a tornado was going to rip through Chaska in three days, I probably wouldn't be in Chaska in three days. And these people who didn't have transportation? My feet take me pretty far in 3 days. And these people who are poor and have no food and water and blah blah blah...well, I'm sorry but is sitting there in the path of a hurricane, doing nothing going to magically produce food, water and transportation?
Anyway, Tiff had a pretty decent point about this and she's usually more even keeled then I am so it was funny to hear: these people didn't help themselves. They sat and waited to be "rescued".
One of the biggest things that you notice is how quickly this group of people took advantage of the situation and turned it into a looting free for all, etc. and then sat there waiting for other people to help them and then got frustrated when no one did. There's a reason the aid didn't come pouring in like it did for the tsunami victims: these people had warning, and those people didn't. These people fight against the little aid, those people banded together and helped. Yes there were exceptions, but for the most part you saw people helping other people. New Orleans is a FRACTION of the Tsunami disaster and immediately we resort to looting, raping and murdering. Fucking animals.
Think about this: a tornado in downtown Eagan flattens 10 square blocks. You think the people of that community would sit there waiting for someone to come rescue them? You think the mayor would go on TV and yell at everyone else for not sending aid? You think the people would pull out their weapons and immediatly start firing at rescuers, raping, pillaging, murdering, etc.? No. As level-headed American suburban Minnesotans (See: caucasians) we would band together, form aid groups, rescue, clean, feed, clothe, save, etc. And if we needed to we'd bring in the National Guard. In fact the Governor would've activated them the second he/she saw the disaster.
I was in the Guard for 10 years. I was activated 10+ times in those 10 years. Straight line winds: activated. Tornadoes: activated. Floods in Grand Forks: activated. Missing children: activated. I'm surprised that people ignore the fact that the National Guard wasn't activated right away (were they?). And don't confused yourself by even thinking, "Well they're all in Iraq."
Anyway, my long ranting point is this: there's a reason these people didn't get the immediate help and it's their own fault. Not the government, not the mayor, certainly not the president. Did things go wrong, yes. Did people drag their feet, obviously. And why? Because they're probably so worried about getting critiqued for every single little move they make that they have to sit and have a meeting before they do anything and think of the impact of every single thing they do. I say stop worrying and make a decision, but that's just me. But the point is that these people needed to come together during this disaster, and they didn't. No community leadership, no political leadership, no "heroes" from downtown New Orleans that I've seen...but plenty outside of Louisiana.
Whew...so rip that apart.
I haven't been watching the news enough to see anything else, and frankly I'm tired of it.
The people that are in the way need to be moved, and New Orleans needs to be bulldozed. Start fresh. Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
quote:Originally posted by Klaus: If shes not careful she will be responsible for more deaths.
Whoaa there.. finger pointing!!!! finger pointing!!!!! ne-ner-ne-ner-KNEE-NER... Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Lol you know what I mean
"more deaths" not meaning that she is personally responsible for any. Just more in a sense that people have died and if the remaining ppl don't leave because she lets them stay it will be her fault. Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
I don't always agree with what W does (as I'm sure you all know), but I think in this case, you can't blame the president/federal government for the failures of local government/agencies, the destruction due to a natural disaster, and individuals own actions. This is a time when finger pointing isn't going to solve the current problem, New Orleans is flooded and residents are evacuated is what we need to focus on. I'm now done with my preaching/opinion for the night. Posted by Ender (Member # 55) on :
Good post Boon.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
quote: "the responsibility of government for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. it is infact the prime mandate for which governments come into existance"
- winston churchill 1930s
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Ah.. I see.. so no pointing fingers at the Publicly elected officials and political oppointees who are in charge of the response... but its "ok" to point fingers at the general public.. especially with regard to race.. education.. and income levels...
Gotcha' just clarifiying... Posted by flamingoamyjo (Member # 93) on :
These people had no choice but to be rescued. If a tornado leveled Eagan, people would be able to walk somewhere, not having to sit on their roofs and wait for a heli.
I think one very critical point as to the failure of the initial evacuation (before the hurricaine) was that even the hospital wasn't evacuated!
The city (and feds) knew that the levees couldn't handle more than a level 3, and this was a 4. They even had mock scenarios just last year of this exact situation. There evacuation plan was to send everyone to the Superdome. Apparently they overlooked the fact that the Superdome could also be under water!
Look at Floridians, how often do they heed the warnings to evacuate?? There are ALWAYS people that stay behind. BUT, never has their been a situation where the city is below sea level and fills in with water with absolutely no where to go.
For the time being, we need to get these people into temporary homes. There was a HUGE fuck up, and I believe we will never know the whole truth of it. This is going to have a HUGE effect on our whole country in the year or two to come and I think we need to start planning on that!
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I think what many of you haven't mentioned or realized is that these people were told to evacuate to the Superdome and Convention Center. And thats where they went. When the hurricane struck there was something like 10-20 thousand people at these places. So why are we calling these people idiots for doing what they were told. If we were told to go to the MOA by our elected officials because a huge natural disaster might be on the way, a great many of us would do just that, instead of getting in our cars and traveling at our expense hundreds of miles away.
Most of you are likening this to a tornado that wipes out a town, but there was 90,000 square miles destroyed. That's a tornado destruction path the size of Kansas.
The fact that this President still has not taken leadership on the issue is apalling. Blame shifting is something for months or years from now, not 3 days after the hurricane hit. I think this editorial sums up what I feel about the role of this administration.
Editorial: Accountability/Little to be seen on Katrina
Published September 8, 2005
If the human misery that followed Hurricane Katrina has been shocking and painful, the federal government's shifting explanations for its needless severity have been utterly shameful.
That assessment is not part of some political, postdisaster "blame game," but an insistence that accountability for preparing for and responding to a major U.S. disaster be placed squarely where it belongs: the federal government and its emergency-response program, FEMA.
The Bush administration's attempts to shift accountability elsewhere -- first to the victims stuck in New Orleans for not leaving, later to Louisiana officials and "bureaucrats" -- are an appalling use of political tactics in the highly inappropriate realm of human suffering and pain, of lives saved and lives lost.
That realm requires that officials accept responsibility, express true and deep understanding of the dislocation and misery being experienced, and redouble efforts to make up for a sickeningly bungled start.
While efforts have been redoubled, effectiveness is still in question; genuine, deep understanding hasn't been apparent despite two presidential visits to the area. And accountability? Accepting it would involve, at the least, making clear that critical changes will be made, and rolling appropriate heads at FEMA and its umbrella, the Department of Homeland Security.
Instead, the White House organized a PR effort directed by political adviser Karl Rove, master of political attack-machine tactics. The New York Times reported Monday that the administration, alarmed at the potential political fallout of its poor performance, regrouped over the weekend and mapped out its strategy. The plan has rolled out exactly as the Times' report said it would:
Administration officials appearing in public have downplayed the need to quickly assess failures, and have tried instead to discuss what's being done now. To the extent that they -- and allies who appear or write in their stead -- do discuss failures, it is to point the finger at local and state officials or "bureaucrats." Officials doing just that include Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff, whose accountability is right up there with FEMA director Michael Brown's.
These tactics are beyond outrageous. No state, no locality can take the lead in dealing with an emergency like Katrina. That's why FEMA was created. That is why Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared a state of emergency on Friday, Aug. 26, when Katrina was a Category 2 hurricane. It is why the Gulf Coast states requested help from the Pentagon that same day.
It is why the next day, as Katrina was upgraded to Category 3, Blanco asked President Bush to declare a federal state of emergency in Louisiana. It was declared. Thus FEMA had full authority and responsibility from the White House "to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
Over the following week the world watched as an even more powerful Katrina hit on Monday and victims pitifully waited for help without adequate (or often any) food, health care or water. Meager boats rescued a few as doctors pleaded for aid, as newscasters struggled to share the story -- and as ships, trucks and outside aid waited, and waited, for approval to help, frequently thwarted, incredibly, by FEMA.
Exactly what went wrong, in both the planning and the response, must be assessed in short order. The ability of the United States to prepare for and respond to disaster -- whatever the origin -- is vital to its security. No less, it is critical to America's ability to honor its shared values, which include attending to the poor, the sick, the vulnerable -- the very people who suffered most from the government's incompetence last week. Yet the White House delays the reckoning while pointing fingers at others.
Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
Here you go for a cluster-fuck of our emergency system:
[ 09-07-2005, 22:04: Message edited by: Crack_Dealer ]
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't turn into a cut and pasting of partison editorials but I guess that's not going to happen.
Point is that NE had a plan to evacuate the city using city busses etc - this was not followed.
And I don't see any "blame shifting" from bush to local levels but the exact opposite. Bush keeps taking about "plenty of time to look into the problems later" - the local and state officials are saying "wasn't my fault - bush didn't help".
Here is my cut and paste of a editorial (lets try to keep the number of these low).
quote:Blame Amid the Tragedy Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?
As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.
The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.
The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.
Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.
The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.
The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.
The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I could cite failures of a so call "pre bush tainted" FEMA, such as thier abysmal response to numerous other natural disasters Hurricane Floyd for one.
Or further cite inspirational generalizations from history that have only mildly anecdotal bearing on the current problem.
I don't have the time to go site more writing heads or talking heads or any other heads, that only find thier own evidence to support thier pre-existing bias and goals.
We tout that states should be able to make much of thier own laws and decisions on policy within thier borders. Imediate emergency response (read within 48 hours after and before the thing hit) should be handled locally. It takes time to mobilize nation wide response.
Again if there is some failure of government in prevention of this dissaster (levee failure) then fine lets look into that later.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I guess my point is more to do with FEMA than anything else. Still, this week they were not allowing in aid because "contracts were not signed".
I just find it funny that this whole thing is partisan. Lives were lost, this country is extremely vulnerable right now to another attack (terrorists this time), they just watched are country have no ability to protect itself, hurricane season is not even over yet, and we want to wait months or years to figure what went wrong. Well I for one am glad I don't live in a zone where a natural disater could strike, because I have no faith in our government, at any level to provide for my safety, and I guess I will have to wait months or years for a "commission" to figure it out. Something needs to be done quickly to get the "major problems" dealt with. That is responding to a disaster. We have years to place blame.
Here are a couple of excerpts, from FOX NEWS, PLEASE READ FULL ARTICLE TO GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING.
By Wednesday of last week, the Hyatt company had sent food and supplies from its Atlanta and Houston hotels to its hotel in New Orleans. The New Orleans Hyatt is less than half a mile from the convention center, an area of the city local and federal government officials said was inaccessible. Oil companies had sent crews in to begin repairs of rigs and refineries on Monday. Television reporters, news crews, even Harry Connick, Jr. managed to navigate through a city the government said was too perilous for relief efforts.
The New Orleans Times-Picayune noted that by Thursday, WalMart had delivered thirteen trucks of supplies while government bureaucrats were still ringing their hands. By the time the federal government finally marched into New Orleans, the Red Cross had sheltered over 130,000 people, and delivered more than 2.5 million meals. By the time military brigades began rescuing people from rooftops, ordinary citizens had saved thousands with private boats.
While government bureaucrats dawdled, politicians covered their rumps, and partisans played the blame game, civil society — private entities — got to the business of helping people. What's worse, in some cases, government prevented the private dissemination of aid. Wal-Mart had three water trucks in New Orleans almost immediately after the hurricane hit. FEMA turned them away. The Red Cross reported on its website that federal and local officials had barred the organization from actually entering New Orleans. Same with the Salvation Army.
One doctor told the Associated Press, "There are entire hospitals that are contacting me, saying, 'We need to take on patients,' but they can't get through the bureaucracy. The crime of this story is, you've got millions of dollars in assets and it's not deployed. We mount a better response in a Third World country."
In Arkansas, state officials were first told to expect 300 evacuees. Nobody came. Then the state was told to prepare 4,000 meals for a fleet of buses. No buses arrived. Suddenly, in the wee hours of Sunday, more than 9,000 refugees showed up at a National Guard post. “It rained people on us,” said Gov. Mike Huckabee, a Republican.
In West Virginia, Gov. Joe Manchin dispatched several planes to the South to ferry refugees to his state. Most of the aircraft sat empty until he ordered them back home in frustration. “The waste that goes on because of a lack of coordination ... ,” he said. Too angry to finish that sentence, Manchin spit out a new one: “To bring five planes back empty is a crying shame.”
In New Mexico, Gov. Bill Richardson said he authorized National Guard troops to leave for New Orleans early last week, but paperwork delayed their departure for days.
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Truth is FEMA has very little power in the big picture. I think what's going to come out of this is that the Dept. of Homeland Security should probably not be in change of FEMA when disasters like this occur. That chart Brad posted below is from 2001 before all the changes were made. And the head of FEMA is probably going to get the axe since he didn't react fast enough.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
quote:Originally posted by Crack_Dealer:
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
The first article you cited wasn't "facts" it was an opinion piece just like the one I followed it up with. At this point there aren't many sources for "facts" until a indepentent panel looks into the matter.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Oh and Brad I really like your new signature, very republican. Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
quote:Originally posted by Klaus:
quote:Originally posted by Crack_Dealer:
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: Citing media dosn't impress me much either. Anybody could spend very little time and find pleanty of sources to suport whatever position they chose to take.
I'm just trying to relate facts of what happened and not just media opinions.
The first article you cited wasn't "facts" it was an opinion piece just like the one I followed it up with. At this point there aren't many sources for "facts" until a indepentent panel looks into the matter.
Scott and I obviously are saying the same thing. NOBODY cane site facts as to allocating and anylizing accountability for the less than desirable emergency response at this time.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I again am trying to relate the FACTS, that story after story is coming out about how aid was either turned away because of beauracacy or we were lied to and told that help could not get in, but Hyatt eveacuated there employees, who were located across the street. Yet again, I come back to:
Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
Posted by flamingoamyjo (Member # 93) on :
On a more important note, there will be a drive for NEW clothing and non-perisible food at the building Brad works in starting tomorrow (county rd 42 and hwy 13). Weekdays 4-8 and all day on the weekends. I think the very least we can do is donate clothes to the people who may (if they're lucky) have a small bag of clothing left to their name. The drive is being handled by the Red Cross and will be shipped down south to be disbursed to those who need it
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I'm not trying to place blame on any one person or organization. I think it was a fuck up from bottom to top. But when the bottom realized they were way in over their heads and begged and pleaded for help on TV, where was Bush (vacation) where was Cheney (vacation), National Guard, any help from the National Level?
I think most realize that the bottom leadership fucked up, but to have virtually no response from the federal level because of red tape is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with extremely quickly. What is going to happen if a major earthquake strikes next week. There is no advanced warning, we need plans in action now!!!
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Fine, call it a fact that the Red Cross was turned back because of a beauracacy. But then it's not fair to go on and say that happened because of Bush etc. We don't know at this point whos beauracacy was to blame. You can site all the New York Times editorials you want that blame Bush, but you can't call them facts.
quote:Incompetence is bad enough; not taking responsibility for it is shameful. Blaming it on others is a national disgrace.
I like the quote but whom are you directing it at? There are some officals blaming people currently but I don't think its the same people you are referring to.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
The fact may be that some help and aid was turned away. BUT the facts as to why are certainly not known, nor can be proven. It is only biased conjecture to say it is due to partisan burocracy, red tape, or dysfunction.
One might recall what happend to hundreds of helpful citzens, and emergency personel who went charging into two certain tall buildings in new york after they were hit by aircraft.
Any individual or aid organizational help could have gone in there got themselves into a situation they could not have gotten out of and be another peorson for the military and FEMA to have to go rescue, even Harry Connick Jr.
This is only another THEORY. The reson could very well be burocracy but it might just be cautious prudence.
There is only so much we can prepare for prior to an event. Only so many things we can model and drill for. What if an asteroid the size of iowa hits the USA? How do you propose we prepare for that? Christ we only see those things after they have near missed us!
Many things could have been done beter obviously. Bush has to depend on those responsible for this sort of thing. Saying he is somehow more accountable being on vacation (and still working 12+ hours a day) than he would be otherwise is again, stupid bickering, that acomplishes nothing.
[ 09-08-2005, 07:22: Message edited by: Chadwick ]
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
I think a situation assessment and possible slower response and resuce is more prudent than a blind charging in and underestimating the danger of a situation thus causing more casualties and problems.
Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
Yes we need plans in case of catostophic events, but like what I said before to Joe and Chad has just re-iterated, you can't plan for every possible, maybe, can happen in 10,000 years event. The other issue is that as much as we want to plan, you really can't as each event is different from second to second. Think of how different 9-11 would have been if the towers had not collapsed (1000's of more people alive), or the levees didn't break (1,000's of more people alive). We have no idea of the full extent of any disaster until after it occurs. Everyone wanted relief immediately after this disaster and expected to have a plan in place, understandable, but you can't plan 100% for an outcome that you don't know. Just think if the levees didn't break and their was just slight flooding in NO. Everyone would be bitching at the Fed governement, had they has planned for the worst possible disaster in US history for this Hurricane, for waisting money and effort on such a minor event and taking our focus away from world conflicts. I understand that in some eyes, no one is taking accountablility, but if you want accountability to have a focus, you need to start at the rock bottom. Not the Goverment bottom, the human chain bottom. People themselves had the responsibility to get out, due to their resources or choices they couldn't do it themselves, they then tried to get it at the state level, the state level couldn't get it, so then it went to the Federal level. Since their is no one else to blame, people are saying the accountability is on the Fed Gov. "They didn't move fast enough after the Hurricane, they didn't reinforce the levee, they didn't try to reduce the poverty level in NO so these people had the means to get out." I am a firm believer in controlling your own destiny. Everyone wants the government out of their lives, except when they get in a situation like this... then the government should be accountable for everyone? Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
There is one other proven fact. When drilling for this EXACT situation 1 year ago. 1/3 of the population of neworleans said they would not evacuate in the event of a real call for evacuation.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I think what you guys like to hear is "Bush is to blame". When Joe and I and maybe some other left-leaning individuals who read this group are stating that government has failed at multiple levels. A democratic government in LA, a republican government in MS and a republican government in the White House. Bush is not to blame. But when a natural disaster occurs, show some leadership, get off your ass at some rally for medicare and show this country you care about people.
What happened to "Compassionate Conservatism"?
Compassionate Conservatism
"I call my philosophy and approach compassionate conservatism. It is compassionate to actively help our fellow citizens in need. It is conservative to insist on responsibility and results. And with this hopeful approach, we will make a real difference in people's lives." President George W. Bush
Not cutting his vacation short and at a minimum responding and assuring the citizens of these states that we are going to help immediately, shows NO compassion for mankind. And in his own words, we must insist on responsibility and results. Take some responsibility and at least say, we the federal government along with the other organizations and local government, messed up. Now let's fix the problem.
Like I said before, I am not blaming Bush himself, but he is/was part of the problem. He has been a strong leader on foreign issues, ("stay the course"), why does he have problems being a strong, caring leader here in America. Lead by example. If the President seems to lack a sense of urgency or action, why would his subordinates feel or sense that they need to be urgent likewise. Top-down management. Show some leadership.
[ 09-08-2005, 09:59: Message edited by: Crack_Dealer ]
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
I agree with you multiple parties are "to blame" for the response. City, State, Federal, and individuals are to blame. Your posts while not specifically stating Bush is the most to blame do point in that direction. I am trying hard to withhold my judgement until we know more.
And please stop with the whole Bush was on vacation BS. Do you know that at Bush's Texas ranch there is a fully functional "western whitehouse" setup? He isn't really on vacation he works all day.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
Yeah, but he wasn't in Texas. He was at a medicare rally in AZ and then he flew to San Diego and had a rally with the "Greatest Generation" on a warship. I guess, I would think something like a natural disaster happening the day before would be more important than pushing your medicare agenda.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Please then try and justify (explain away) his damage control speach where he says... and I quote "george bush today (sept 1, 2005) on good morning america.
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
hello??? Since 9/11.. it was listed as one of the top 3 potential vulnerablities to national security outside another attack on New York, and a massive quake in Cali...
Prior to that.. the Army Corp of Engineers has repeatedly asked for funding to renovate the levee's going back for 3 admins ....so I fully admit.. it does transcend his admin... but then again.. all I've heard since 9/11 is how we're sooooo much safer now because of this admin... that thank good georgie boy is in charge and not some bleeding hart...
What does he do with the situational reports from the Dept. of Homeland security.. wipe his ass??? because he obviously hasnt read them....
Once again.. devils in the details.. details that are ignored unless they further personal ideological agendas...
I'm looking at one instance here.. specific instances tied to response (and prevention here to a certain degree).. It does not mean there are not other levels of accountability...
Sorry for expecting a little more from the POTUS.. like actually checking his facts before running to the cameras for damage control and a photo op.. Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
That certainly was a stupid thing to say. I have to give you that.
Honestly this more than anything will either turn the whole country against him or define his legacy for the better. He still has an oportutnity to show true leadership on this one.
Imediate response may not be his fault. But, how it is handled from this point forward or maybe a few days ago forward is what will detiermine things. Also the investigations of the problems we all know happend.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Tue Aug 30
"When the levee breaks..."
Ceseare playing the gee-tar while Rome burns... Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
True. I think what will come out of this is Bush received bad info the first couple days. As we have all noticed since last Friday the relief efforts have been going very well I believe. There are still issues with all the agencies working together but shit is getting done. It's really hard for me to believe that Bush would ignore a national disaster if he had good info. I remember last Wednesday even the media wasn't reporting it like it turned out. Hell the govenor still wasn't asking for specific responces yet.
Bush said it best "the relief efforts so far have been unacceptable" - I bet behind closed doors he was really pissed at the info he had been getting and how it turned out.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
Good article on the continued misuse of tax dollars at the local/state level.
Look at it this way, if you remember as i do watching the news after the hurrican had passed there was no indication of any levee failure that day or into the night. I do not think it was until the next day that neworleans even started to flood. Thus at that point it was not NEARLY the rescue response emergency the day of the storm (the storm hit land in the morning), as it was after flooding began in NO.
I even remenber watching tv reporters standing in the streets of neworleans touting a near miss for the city and that the levees were hodling at that time. This was in the late afternoon after the storm passed. Those same streets were not under water for another 24 hours. Thus the flooding problem arose almost a full day after the storm hit. And the true crisis didnt arise until that time. Before that it was just alot of property damage and 110 dead in Mississipi, but a sigh of relief for having "missed" NewOrleans.
This may be what he was refering to. His assessment may have been more reffering to "well we thought it had missed neworleans enough to not cause the storm surge and rising waters that would break the levees. Honestly I give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in that regard. It was still a stupid thing for a man whom is the single most sought after target to take quotes out of context to say.
[ 09-08-2005, 10:53: Message edited by: Chadwick ]
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: It was still a stupid thing for a man whom is the single most sought after target to take quotes out of context to say.
Now that's funny Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
quote:Originally posted by Crack_Dealer: Good article on the continued misuse of tax dollars at the local/state level.
Very interesting article that kinda shoots holes in the whole blaming federal level (administrations) for local/state irresponsibility.
If that is true.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chadwick: I even remenber watching tv reporters standing in the streets of neworleans touting a near miss for the city and that the levees were hodling at that time. This was in the late afternoon after the storm passed. Those same streets were not under water for another 24 hours. Thus the flooding problem arose almost a full day after the storm hit. And the true crisis didnt arise until that time. Before that it was just alot of property damage and 110 dead in Mississipi, but a sigh of relief for having "missed" NewOrleans.
What I find odd is that I read in the Star Tribune, a full day before landfall taht the eye of the hurricane was projected to pass over New Orleans and even if it missed the city would be underwater. When I woke up the next morning I rushed to see what had happened and was surprised to see that New Orleans was okay, at the time. But, if I, living in Minnesota, knew that New Orleans was predicted to be a disaster area a full day before, why did the people down there not know?
Food for thought.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Corrected my post below. My point was i do not think the crisis in NO was nearly as bad day of hurrican after it passed as it was 24-48 hours later. The real crisis of human life was then not the day of the storm.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
True, I agree.
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Anyone with XM Radio I encourage you to tune into XM248 Redcross Radio. Very interesting info. A collections of press briefings and local info - no editorials like CNN or FNC.
Posted by Trany (Member # 31) on :
Posted by BoondockSaint (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Crack_Dealer: ...National Guard, any help from the National Level?
National Guard is handled by the Governor of each state.
Posted by Crack_Dealer (Member # 68) on :
I know, that's why there's a comma there.
I was rambling at the time and just typed whoever popped up in my mind. Posted by BoondockSaint (Member # 67) on :
They're reporting today that people were taking dumps in the kitchen of the Superdome because they were afraid to go get raped by the gangs in the bathrooms.
Also, they're reporting that the first Red Cross truck full of supplies was turned away by the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security (not Federal level there) because the LA DOHS didn't want people to flock to the Superdome.
I guess it still pisses me off that the masses didn't band together and take care of these thugs, but then again that's the way it always is. 100 people can keep 100,000 people pacified with the threat of violence... Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
I saw Jesse Jackson last night on Hannity and Colmes - he was asked about the Red Cross being turned away by the city at the superdome. He said they were turned away by the "Department of Homeland Security". But he failed to add Louisianna in that statement. Colmes was questioning so he didn't correct him.........
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown is being removed from his role managing Hurricane Katrina relief efforts, The Associated Press has learned.
Brown is being sent back to Washington from Baton Rouge, where he was the primary official overseeing the federal government's response to the disaster, according to two federal officials who declined to be identified before the announcement.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Crony'ism at its finest...
The "good'ol boy" style of govt may work fine in Texas, but it has no place at the national level..
Exectutive appointees should be required to have some legit credentials... just a fawking joke... and this is not a partisan issue for me.. Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
Now how do you clean that up?
Posted by Kitty (Member # 89) on :
Great pictures. The new issue that people are now facing is mold. I was watching CNN and they had a story on the people returning to their homes where the flood waters have now receeded and mold is growing up the walls of their house. In a week to two weeks, the mold will grow up the walls until the house is unlivable and has to be torn down. So just when people were relieved that they still had a home, the infested waters will slowly destroy it.
Posted by Chadwick (Member # 45) on :
Grind the whole city to dust and power the whole nation with it all winter.
Posted by Jomama (Member # 56) on :
President Bush Sells Louisiana Back to the French
>> President Bush and a giddy Jacques Chirac shake hands on the deal. >> >> BATON ROUGE, LA. - The White House announced today that President >> Bush has successfully sold the state of Louisiana back to the French >> at more than double its original selling price of $11,250,000. >> >> "This is a bold step forward for America," said Bush. "And America >> will be stronger and better as a result. I stand here today in unity >> with French Prime Minister Jack Sharaq, who was so kind to accept my >> offer of Louisiana in exchange for 25 million dollars cash." >> >> The state, ravaged by Hurricane Katrina, will cost hundreds of >> billions of dollars to rebuild. >> >> "Jack understands full well that this one's a 'fixer upper,'" said >> Bush. "He and the French people are quite prepared to pump out all >> that water, and make Louisiana a decent place to live again. And >> they've got a lot of work to do. But Jack's assured me, if it's not >> right, they're going to fix it." >> >> The move has been met with incredulity from the beleaguered residents >> of Louisiana. >> >> "Shuba-pie!" said New Orleans resident Willis Babineaux. >> "Frafer-perly yum kom drabby sham!" >> >> However, President Bush's decision has been widely lauded by >> Republicans. >> >> "This is an unexpected but brilliant move by the President," said >> Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. "Instead of spending billions and >> billions, and billions of dollars rebuilding the state of Louisiana, >> we've just made 25 million dollars in pure profit." >> >> "This is indeed a smart move," commented Fox News analyst Brit Hume. >> "Not only have we stopped the flooding in our own budget, we've made >> money on the deal. Plus, when the god-awful French are done fixing it >> up, we can easily invade and take it back again." >> >> The money gained from 'T'he Louisiana Refund' is expected to be >> immediately pumped into the rebuilding of Iraq.
Posted by BoondockSaint (Member # 67) on :
Poor bastards are going to get hit by Rita now... Posted by PhantomBear (Member # 99) on :
So,
Just thought I'd share my Katrina experience with you all....
This may be sorta vague, has to be, you know all that tell you kill you stuff......
We flew into New Orleans the day after the hurricane to secure the airport, and to set up flights into and out of the area. The airport was a mess, with peeps all over the place.
So those of us there started doing every kind of airport work imaginable, from driving those little tugs to screening workers and such.
But MY public service to the people of N.O.? Laying in the grass in the rain by a fenceline with a rifle ready to kill some looters or airport fucker-uppers.
Who said the Federal Government never did anything for these people
P.S. plz keep this under wraps, if you know what I'm sayin' :0
Posted by Klaus (Member # 66) on :
Nice sounds like fun. The day after the hurricane that place must have been a mess. See any water? Or is the airport high enough up in the city.
ps.. we can always move threads like this into the private area if you want.
Posted by PhantomBear (Member # 99) on :
I'm not sure I can access the private area...
anyways, as long as it stays really non-descript, that's no problem.
The airport was relatively dry, but still a mess.
Cajuns REALLY stink after wading in sewage for a few days, more than I think a regular Minnesotan would
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like the mayor blaming bush for lack of governmental leadership in the face of this disaster then using the rudy guliani after 9/11 as a good example who happend to be the mayor of new york. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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A Hurricane is not about politics, it's a natural disaster not caused by any one person, group, etc. If everyone would just stop pointing fingers, maybe the rebuilding and clean up will happen much faster and the people who need the help can get it. I don't know if this is a news flash, but you can't plan for every possible disaster that can happen in the United States and world wide. Everyone barely wants to pay the tax dollars that they do, only imagine if we needed to plan for an alien attack like in "War of the Worlds" that might some day (one in a billion years) come and destroy the US. (ok.. far fetched, but you get the point) We would be spending all our money/effort on something that could possibly happen some day all to be able to say... well we planned for it. Get over it, stop pointing fingers, and in Trany's words "just fix the problem"
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