Unions

Been kinda dead on here lately so lets start a topic about unions..... ;)


One of my tasks at work each year is to calculate labor rates to use when we bid jobs (I am working on this today). My company currently does business in two states one is unionized and one isn't. Here is a quick break down:

Union state -

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $57,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $70,000

Non Union State

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $34,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $45,000


Of course that's just an example of the gross wages and does not take into account the benefits. This is where the big debate in Wisconsin right now is. I work for a private company and much like most reading this I am sure the increase in health insurance premiums etc has been passed on to the employees. With the unions I deal with the increases are passed on to the company. What my company pays the union for a hour of benefits for a union worker is approx double what the company pays toward my benefits, I pay the increases. Also, from the figures above you can see that the union members in my company have higher gross wages before you even consider benefits.

I know unions built this country blah blah but the question is shouldn't the market decide wages and benefits these days?

Absolutely.

And more to the point here government worker unions should be illegal.

Why? Because the government by definition is a monopoly. They have a monopoly on force. Thus there is no competing "entity" to give workers a better choice or to balance out the ridiculous handcuffing unions cause the entities they work for...with unnaturally high compensation.

They basically demand and get whatever they want and its up to the taxpayer to pay it.

Well the time of reckoning has come. The pyramid is inverting and will collapse. Wisconsin appears to have realized it and done something, we'll see if they get yelled down or not.

I am a public employee so I have a slightly different perspective. Most of the articles I can find on this WI deal are very poorly written and contain almost no FACTS. I did find the text for the bill being proposed: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/SB-13.pdf

First and foremost I completely agree that public employees need to share the pains of the economic times and should not be insulated from cuts and layoffs. That being said, it is important for people to understand that collective bargaining agreements are, in essence labor contracts. From most of my reading it looks like most government employees in WI pay almost no share of their pension and very little of the cost of their health care. While I think demanding that they contribute more to these benefits is completely reasonable, I think that doing it in the middle of "contracts" is NOT. The state should attempt to balance their budget through other severe measures and visit the benefit issues as the new collective bargaining agreements expire. By other severe means, I suggest layoffs of state employees.

It's almost 100% that through attrition the laid off employees would be back to work within a year or two and I'm sure most will find a way to make it until then. Hundreds of thousands of private employees have found ways to make it so I'm sure the public employees will find a way too.

The proposed bill abolishes the collective bargaining process for public employees except cops and firefighters and a few other employees. To avoid some WTF reactions on why cops and firefighters are exempt (and should be), I’ll explain. Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

I think there was a time when labor unions provided a CRITICAL role in protecting employees from getting screwed over by overzealous employers. In today’s day there are thousands if not tens of thousands of labor laws to help protect employees. There are also teams of government agencies and countless private lawyers out there to protect employees from getting screwed. With that I think that discussing the role of labor unions should be on the table for all lawmakers.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

Personally I have no problem with police and fire unions for the reasons stated by Mike. I just really hate Teacher and Nurse unions. They demand too much and always use the scare tactics (and walkouts with no recourse) to get what they want. They believe their profession is somehow noble and they should get 50% over the private market for the same work.

The teachers in WI are really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Tax payers pay over 80% of their "pensions" (that word doesn't even exist in the private sector anymore) and they are calling the governor Hitler. WOW



Favorite Tweet from today:

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DLoesch Dana Loesch
Because asking people to pay a couple points towards their own health care is JUST LIKE gassing millions of Jews. #idiocy

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Originally Posted by MnWilly

Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

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I actually agree with this. These positions are a special case they need the protection collective bargaining provides.

And ya know what, it sucks that those promised certain things will not get them. Pensions specifically. But that's life. There are no guarantees. Just like there is no guarantee that the electronic numbers that represent my retirement IRA will be worth shit when it comes time for me to retire. It's reality...

Seems reasonable for 9 months of work........ wtf

Everyone in the world is watching these idiots and laughing. These assholes have better benefits than any private worker and get pensions! Pensions are slowly (but surely) becoming extinct.

Unions were made to protect the worker's rights but do we honestly even need that anymore? There are 10 other groups in charge of watching rights now. I don't think if we abolish unions we'll see business owners go back to the practices they had before unions existed. Back then they needed a union so the factory owner wouldn't barricade the fire escape dooming his workers to a burning death, now we need unions because some entitled faggots don't want to pay anything towards their own healthcare and retirement?

I am just going to point out all unions aren't evil terrible things. While I am relatively new and not the most informed, I just want to bring up my own experience with the issue.

I have been working at UPS for just under 4 years now and have seen both sides of the debate. At first I wasn't at all happy about being unionized, because from what I saw all it did was protect the unskilled and unmotivated workers while at the same time holding back the harder workers from raises and promotions. Since then I have opened up to a more "give and take" perspective. While my personal success is regulated by a majority vote, I receive compensation for working harder in the form of a more lax schedule as well as my boss turning the other way when I make smaller mistakes.

I would also like to point out that while UPS has been doing great as a company with union workers, our competition Fed-Ex (who does not have a union) has been having a lot more troubles and recently forced an airline they contracted with into bankruptcy. Also, from what friends have said that are employed by Fed-Ex, they get the shaft and then some compared to how we are treated at UPS, despite the higher production at my company.

Feel free to tear my argument apart, I know I don't have the experience or the education that some of you do on the matter, but I wanted to provide at least one pro-union post in this thread.

Please keep in mind I am NOT supporting government based unions. UPS unions are funded solely by the company, not tax-payers.

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Originally Posted by Kyrillian

Unions were made to protect the worker's rights but do we honestly even need that anymore? There are 10 other groups in charge of watching rights now.

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Exactly they suppress fair market value for skilled jobs, and encourage mediocrity. The ACLU and a label for every dysfunction have allowed for anyone to be qualified as "protected". I think that these states and such have to deal with budget shortfalls, and getting the common "hands off" rhetoric.

The states always say that they are hemorrhaging funds, but look into their finances, you will find case after case of misspent funds. More stances need to be taken like this, I think that the unions need to be broken, look at NWA and the airline mechanics. How did the chest thumping work out there. The "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude of the WI DFL is insulting. They are elected officials and need to do their job, if I don't do my job I don't have one, sent the chumbolones packing.

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Originally Posted by Trany

Exactly they suppress fair market value for skilled jobs, and encourage mediocrity. The ACLU and a label for every dysfunction have allowed for anyone to be qualified as "protected". I think that these states and such have to deal with budget shortfalls, and getting the common "hands off" rhetoric.

The states always say that they are hemorrhaging funds, but look into their finances, you will find case after case of misspent funds. More stances need to be taken like this, I think that the unions need to be broken, look at NWA and the airline mechanics. How did the chest thumping work out there. The "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude of the WI DFL is insulting. They are elected officials and need to do their job, if I don't do my job I don't have one, sent the chumbolones packing.

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The NWA mechanics went out on strike because they were expected to take a 26% pay cut. Would you happily stay at your job if your employer told you not only were you not getting a raise, but instead they were just going to pay you less? I see a lot of you saying unions don't need to exist because of employers being ethical nowadays, how is a move like that by a company even remotely "okay" ?

Partly because the company isn't taking in the revenue to justify the salary of the mechanics. It's one thing if the company is prosperous and raking in the profits, but in the case of NWA it was not by any standards. So they are handcuffed by the union labor, then if they are forced to pay them what happens? The company will issue new debt to cover the increase in cost in hopes of increasing revenue in the future. Then when revenue doesn't increase they go bankrupt, the employees are fucked (26% paycut lookin good at this point), and now the bondholders are mostly fucked too!

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Originally Posted by Chadwick

Absolutely.

And more to the point here government worker unions should be illegal.

Why? Because the government by definition is a monopoly. They have a monopoly on force. Thus there is no competing "entity" to give workers a better choice or to balance out the ridiculous handcuffing unions cause the entities they work for...with unnaturally high compensation.

They basically demand and get whatever they want and its up to the taxpayer to pay it.

Well the time of reckoning has come. The pyramid is inverting and will collapse. Wisconsin appears to have realized it and done something, we'll see if they get yelled down or not.

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So you want a bunch of private companies and corporations doing all of the governmental regulatory work? Yeah, lets see how long it takes before that completely corrupts the governmental system. At least with unions there is some accountability. Its scary to think how much tax payer money taken from local governments (cities) would be going into the pockets of private company executives in that case.

Someone has to enforce the laws that are passed, otherwise they are meaningless. If you don't have the workforce necessary to enforce those laws, people will just take advantage of the situation by not paying attention to them. Why worry about a law if not abiding by it leads to no consequences?

However, I think the government can and should be streamlined. Believe me, as a government worker, I can tell you that it does not operate efficiently. But, I think that can be done in a way that doesn't result in drastic wage decreases across the board or cutting out people's benifits. There would likely be some loss of jobs though after restructuring.

But, there are definately some government employees in certain sections that seem to have way too much time on their hands. I am not one of them, however, and as such I expect to be compensated fairly. I make around 45k per year prior to taxes and have been working there for 5 years. I don't consider that to be a gross overpayment of salary considering what I do.

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Originally Posted by kwiikz

The NWA mechanics went out on strike because they were expected to take a 26% pay cut. Would you happily stay at your job if your employer told you not only were you not getting a raise, but instead they were just going to pay you less? I see a lot of you saying unions don't need to exist because of employers being ethical nowadays, how is a move like that by a company even remotely "okay" ?

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Well, I did work for NWA, and lost my job int the merger with Delta, I wasn't union, but dealt with the unions all the time, Now as for the mechanics, they walked ,and guess what NWA hired scabs!!!!! I am not certain but I believe that majority of the union mechanics are not working for NWA/Delta now either.

Unions suppress fair market value, My wife is forced to be in the teachers union, although she isn't a teacher. She is a skilled position as a SLP(speech language pathologist). So there is one or two SLPs in a school, some even split time between two or three schools. No she makes good money for working 9 months of the year, but if the school districts had to contract to her for her services, she would probably make 50% more. Hers is a case of supply and demand, her graduating class at the U was ~40 students, The UofM and UWRF are the only SLP programs locally or at least 5+ years ago.

You should be all for the unions if you want to be average and support the encouragement for sub standard and mediocre work. Not only are you protected, but you might just get a position as a union rep or steward. oOOOoOoooO you can then be the royal pain in everyone's ass, and protect worthless employees who have been there for eternity but are incapable of doing anything remotely like the job at hand.

The unions have done some good with child labor, 40hr work weeks, and safe working conditions. Now you have ACLU, OSHA, EEOC, USDL, tones of other acronyms to watch out for you, the unions just suckle at the teat of the working class and try to remain a pain in everyone's ass.

Trany, Union contracts don't protect your ass from getting fired if you are doing poor work or not putting in enough effort. It is up to the supervisor to make that decision and it is not restricted by any Union clauses as far as I know.

That being said, most supervisors of government employees are far too lenient and do not fire people who should be fired for doing substandard work. Seriously, there is someone that works in my section that has absolutely no clue how to do her job and everyone that is supposed to rely on her position for technical expertise is pissed off about it and has complained to her supervisor. But, she has remained in her position for probably 3-4 years.

Unions just organize your pay structure, usually based on the amount of time you have worked in your position, so you get periodic pay increases based on time instead of performance. It could be said that encourages mediocraty, but only if the supervisor does not properly enforce the slackers.

Unions definitely wont protect bad workers. UPS may tolerate 'average' work, but if anyone isn't carrying their weight they will find a way to terminate that employee. I've seen it multiple times. The only difference is that instead of a day or week before the termination, it may take around a month.

NWA/Delta may have not made as much money before they replaced all their union workers, but look at the quality of work they are pumping out now. Even just yesterday, an engine blew up in Florida. By putting in scabs the quality of the work done immediately and visibly decreased. You get what you pay for.

So while I can agree that in SOME cases union workers are 'mediocre' and those workers will indeed be protected by the union, but it is impossible to say ALL unions are bad things. I would again like to point out the closest example I have experience with. Fed-Ex vs UPS: UPS is the better company to work for, and the more successful business, hands down.

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Originally Posted by Ender

......It is up to the supervisor to make that decision and it is not restricted by any Union clauses as far as I know........

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Grievances, work loads "job details", they have all sorts of hooks to set in to keep the union jobs union jobs, I had a lady who worked underneath me at NWA, she had been there ~20 years, seriously 4- 5 times a day I had to show here how to attach a file to email. This lady could not perform simple tasks like that.

The job she did a half retarded hook armed pirate monkey could do, it was open a envelope, read the details of the "papers" stamp it with where it looked like it should go, she basically routed mail. The emails stuff was from the OCR service they used, and she would have to pair things up. She had 3-4 month stints in various departments, but as her gross incompetence was known, the union protected her, and just shuffled her around.

Sure you have a few who fall thru the cracks, but someone who has spent 20 years being shuffled around, although they were incapable of even the most mundane task. The process with unions and "performance" reviews, you get the union rep, fighting for the idea that the union is supreme, they fight for every union member less gross negligence, like smoking crack while watching kiddy pron on their bosses computer smoking inside.

The union wants you to be afraid, but their defense of looking out for the workers so they have jobs and their livleyhood aren't destroyed is bull shit. The unions had a history with "thug" tactics, and they will try to use them even though the mob is out :)

All of these seem reasonable.

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Wisconsin capitol Madison was besieged by protesters this week as tens of thousands of state workers demonstrated against a Republican spending bill. Here is what Republican Governor Scott Walker proposes:

* State workers must increase contributions to their pensions to 5.8 percent of salary, and double contributions to their health insurance premiums to 12.6 percent. This would result in a cut in take-home pay of about 8 percent.

* Walker wants to limit collective bargaining to the issue of wages, and cap increases to the rate of inflation, with a voter referendum needed for bigger increases.

* Walker's proposal would also prohibit employer collection of union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. Contracts would be limited to one year, and collective bargaining units must take annual votes to maintain certification as a union.

* Walker said collective bargaining takes too long and the cuts need to be made immediately. He said the alternative would be layoffs of more than 10,000 workers.

* Certain employees, including local law enforcement and fire employees, would be exempt from the collective bargaining changes.

(Reporting by Jeff Mayers; Writing by Mary Wisniewski; Editing by Greg McCune and Todd Eastham)

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The current debate is over publicly funded unions (government) that are really a monopoly. The people against the legislation like to try to shift it to ALL unions but this bill is only about the public ones.

All of that sounds reasonable to me too, except maybe capping all wage increases at the rate of inflation. Making the rate of inflation the normal annual step increase is fine, but you should still periodically get a raise that is slightly above the rate of inflation, maybe every 3 or 4 years at 3-4%. It should require a strict and thorough performance review, though.

I think my annual wage increase is 2.5% if I recall correctly, which is about 1% above the current inflation rate. All state employee wage increases have been frozen for the past couple years though, which is understandable, so I haven't gotten any raise at all recently. I have probably only averaged out raises at the rate of inflation over my 5 years of working here, so I don't think there is anything wrong here at the MN level since the legislature can freeze those increases whenever they want to.

I really wouldn't have a problem paying more for pension and health care... I do pay very little for those benefits right now. If that is the only thing that the WI workers are all up in arms about, that is pretty stupid.

Ender, the point is that the WI employees are being asked to give up about 8 to 8 1/2% of their take home pay. That is a nearly 10% REDUCTION in pay no matter how you look at it, and that is significant! I think that is the main reason they are willing to "fight" against this bill. That being said in these trying times WI has two choices. Cut existing salaries and try to keep the level of service for state residence. Or, layoffs and impact that level of service. I would think a more balanced approach would be to cut both a little.

Problem is that in my experince when it come to laying off employees the ones in charge NEVER get rid of pet programs. They tend to cut essential services first to "punish" the taxpayer for forcing them to make layoffs. Then they throw up their hands and say look what the Republicans made us do! I have personally seen this a bunch of times in local government. It is disqusting.

And don't forget most layoffs are based on seniority in unions... The old guys get to hang around forever even if they are below average employees.

I understand if you are in a union and faced with a 8% pay cut you are going to be unhappy. It's a shock but compared to what some of us in the private sector have seen it's not so bad. I know I haven't seen a raise in a few years plus I have had to pay any increase in health insurance costs (employer said they were done paying increases for a few years) which adds up to much more then 8% of where I should be. Still I understand 8% is hard to take all at once.

Yep, I agree Scott. I don't think that 8% is unreasonable in these times. I was trying to illustrate why they might be willing to fight so hard, that's all. Funny, this is spreading fast. We all just got a long email from our federation president yesterday. It was basically condemning the attacks on the WI public employees. And it was urging us to contact our MN reps to avoid a similar situation here in MN. Funny, seems like war talk. It is coming here too. Let's just hope I don't turn into a big hypocrite when it hits me in my wallet :)

A co-worker (from WI) sent me this from a blog his friend runs.

Some interesting points.


Just a few thoughts and rhetorical questions in response to the actions of protesting teachers in Madison.

Before I go on, let me state for the record that I think there are many great teachers out there. Unfortunately for them they choose to collectivize and they cannot be rewarded for excellence and are just judged as part of a whole. I would love it if we could remove the unions so we could pay great teachers a ton of money as a reward for excellence. I would gladly pay a premium in taxes for great performance in the schools manned by excellent professionals.

Teachers and their unions are upset that they will have to pay more for their health care. These same people fully support Obamacare, which they claim will lower insurance costs for everyone. So if insurance will be so much cheaper, why are they so upset?

Teachers consistently make the argument that the evidence that US kids are behind most of the world where education is concerned is due to the fact that they aren’t paid ENOUGH? So they believe that demonstrated failure in their jobs means they should be paid MORE? Isn’ t that like giving the Lombardi trophy to the worst team in the NFL?

Teachers like to tell everyone that they are “all about the kids”. Well, that is only when they aren’t busy being all about their pay, their insurance, their pension, their hours, their union, Democrat candidates, protests, sick outs and tenure. Other than that, they are all about the kids.

Teachers complain that they are all lumped together when the issues of education are discussed, and this is unfair. But they also choose to collectivize. Seems to me that they need to either end the union so they cannot be lumped together, or realize that collectivization means you are no longer treated as an individual, even if you are excellent.

Teachers constantly claim that they are taxpayers, too. How is it that a person that is paid with 100% tax dollars could be considered a tax payer? They are not tax payers, they are tax consumers. They just give the government a small refund every year. Only people who don’t get paid with tax dollars are truly tax payers.

If teachers unions are so essential to quality education, why is it that non-unionized private school kids and home schooled kids are demonstrated to be more successfully educated no matter how you measure it? Seems like the unions are responsible for the LACK of quality education, doesn’t it?

If teaching is such a demanding and difficult profession, how is it possible that “untrained” moms and dads all over the nation are out performing “trained professionals”? Is it just an incredible run of luck?
If teaching is a professional endeavour, why is it that empirical data never seems to matter when it comes to evaluating results? Isn’t that a lot like NASA not noticing or caring when rocket after rocket blows up on the pad, and then claiming that they are the best rocket scientists in the world and demanding more pay?

Teachers claim that the poor test results are due not to poor work on their part, but to faulty tests. Using the NASA analogy, that’s like the rocket scientist blaming an exploding rocket on the camera filming the launch.
Union teachers argue that they are underpaid, but non-union teachers make significantly less and do a better job, based on student performance. Doesn’t that mean the opposite of what unions always say? Aren’t they both over paid and under performing?

Teachers always seem to blame failure to achieve results on lack of parental involvement, but get really angry when parents decide to demand better results, or expect poor performers to get fired or take a pay cut. Which is it? Are parents not involved enough, or involved too much? Make up your minds, please.

If teachers complain that parents are not involved enough, doesn’t that mean that teaching is not really that hard, and that it relies almost as much on the actions of untrained people as it does “trained professionals”?
If teaching is so difficult, how did we ever get teachers in the first place? Wouldn’t we still be banging rocks together to make fire, since without trained unionized teachers, we can’t learn anything?

How is it possible that Laura Ingles Wilder could teach a class of kids at all grade levels simultaneously without the internet, computer tests, and teachers editions with all the answers and still wrote a bunch of books in her spare time, but today’s teachers cannot exist without a teachers aide, a class size of roughly 4 kids, 1 in-service day per week and teacher’s conventions 4 times per year? Was she some sort of alien or super human?

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Originally Posted by Sylvester

How is it possible that Laura Ingles Wilder could teach a class of kids at all grade levels simultaneously without the internet, computer tests, and teachers editions with all the answers and still wrote a bunch of books in her spare time, but today’s teachers cannot exist without a teachers aide, a class size of roughly 4 kids, 1 in-service day per week and teacher’s conventions 4 times per year? Was she some sort of alien or super human?

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They were allowed to beat kids back then, that probably didn't hurt.

I wouldn't go so far as to demean teachers by saying their jobs are not difficult or important as that blogger did, but there are a few good points there that revolve around a main theme of rewarding for individual performance, which encourages good teachers.

How to measure individual teacher performance comparatively between one teacher and another when they teach different subjects and different grades is an entirely different issue, however, and can be pretty subjective. I am not saying some system couldn't be worked out to do it, but it would probably have its significant flaws.

Ive always found it strange that when education reform is discussed in America culture we focus on the quality of the instructors and the level of funding provided. The fact of the matter is that even if the teachers had more incentive and more tax money was allocated for education purposes we would still be struggling to catch up.

I don't care how good a teacher is or how much money is thrown at the problem if the curriculum is complete shit. At the same time as other countries are covering hard sciences and "high school" level math, our students are studying basic arithmetic and life sciences. At some point we began to systematically accept mediocrity and failed to match rising global standards, a problem that continues to expand with so called "degree inflation" and diploma mills beginning to plague our post-secondary education system (a major issue when you consider our universities have been and are still regarded as the highest quality in the world).

In regards for unions, how can you justify the continued existence of such a system if it fails to accomplish its real purpose? The basis for most pro-union arguments from an ethical stand point center around Utilitarianism (viewpoint that the correct moral choice is the one that results in the greatest good for the greatest number) and as such are for the most part fallacies. Unions care primarily about the present conditions for their current members, with little to no concern for future job growth and stability (obvious example being our automotive industry) or the impact such actions will have on the consumer (students in education) and thus cant reasonably claim to have the interests of the greatest number in mind.

Being as I have never been nor never plan to be a member of a union I apologize in advance for any misconceptions I may harbor as in the absence of first hand experience I am left to base my opinions primarily on my somewhat limited understanding of the applicable economic and social information. I guess I just view unions like the government sanctioned monopoly on energy and subsidization of the airline and farming industries - outdated policy that is counter intuitive its original intent.

edit: almost forgot, I still owe kwiikz $200

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Originally Posted by Ender

Trany, Union contracts don't protect your ass from getting fired if you are doing poor work or not putting in enough effort. It is up to the supervisor to make that decision and it is not restricted by any Union clauses as far as I know.

Unions just organize your pay structure, usually based on the amount of time you have worked in your position, so you get periodic pay increases based on time instead of performance. It could be said that encourages mediocraty, but only if the supervisor does not properly enforce the slackers.

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Actually they do, if you had worked in a union company you would know how hard it is to get rid of a union employee. In health care they basically have to kill a few people through provable negligence...before they can even start to build a case against the person...

And why is it fair to organize pay structure solely on seniority? How does that reward those who work harder and are more competent? So, I can just show up everyday and as long as i don't get fired for doing a bunch of obviously negligent things my pay keeps going up and up? Try working in the real world where if you dont bring your A-game to every project you go out of business. There is no accountability for government workers and no competition, therefore there is only one thing that keeps their work efficient and effective. Pride in it. Which is sorely lacking in many government workforces...not all but some...

Unions are the reason we are basically owned by china...they got greedy and killed American ingenuity and accountability...

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Originally Posted by kwiikz

The NWA mechanics went out on strike because they were expected to take a 26% pay cut. Would you happily stay at your job if your employer told you not only were you not getting a raise, but instead they were just going to pay you less? I see a lot of you saying unions don't need to exist because of employers being ethical nowadays, how is a move like that by a company even remotely "okay" ?

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Ya know what, this argument is bullshit and the crux of the problem. If you think you are being treated unfairly by your employer you have a fantastic option to not put up with it in this society. GO WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE!!

Then maybe if that employer cant keep workers working, they will go out of business and it will take care of itself....wow what a concept who knew competition was good for workers too!!!

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Originally Posted by Ender

So you want a bunch of private companies and corporations doing all of the governmental regulatory work? Yeah, lets see how long it takes before that completely corrupts the governmental system. At least with unions there is some accountability. Its scary to think how much tax payer money taken from local governments (cities) would be going into the pockets of private company executives in that case.

Someone has to enforce the laws that are passed, otherwise they are meaningless. If you don't have the workforce necessary to enforce those laws, people will just take advantage of the situation by not paying attention to them. Why worry about a law if not abiding by it leads to no consequences?

However, I think the government can and should be streamlined. Believe me, as a government worker, I can tell you that it does not operate efficiently. But, I think that can be done in a way that doesn't result in drastic wage decreases across the board or cutting out people's benifits. There would likely be some loss of jobs though after restructuring.

But, there are definately some government employees in certain sections that seem to have way too much time on their hands. I am not one of them, however, and as such I expect to be compensated fairly. I make around 45k per year prior to taxes and have been working there for 5 years. I don't consider that to be a gross overpayment of salary considering what I do.

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1) I am by no means saying that the entire government could or should be privatized, but they should not be allowed collective bargaining. Government unions in general should be illegal. I am not saying government workers are not required in life. That said, in most cases private companies can and do do it cheaper and better, because they can go out of business. Government cant go out of business. But it can and should be shrunk.

2) You actually make my argument for me. People with too much time yet will not get fired, why? Because it is hard as hell to do so, and what will happen to a bad supervisor or sector of government if they are inefficient, nothing unless elected officials chose to do something about it. In the private sector, lax work behavior and poor managment causes companies to go out of business.

3) There have been benefit cuts and wadge decreases all over the private sector. Why should government employees be exempt?

Aren't the airlines heavily subsidized? I could be wrong but from what I understand of the industries problems the current business model just is not sustainable due to rising fuel cost and what not. If that's the case the mechanics should just be happy they have a job, as the government has chosen procrastination over actually solving the problem or leaving it to the industry to sort out.....

Sounds exactly like the problem with education and the wars on things (terror, drugs, etc)

We have no real solutions so lets just keep throwing money at it...

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Originally Posted by Chadwick

Sounds exactly like the problem with education and the wars on things (terror, drugs, etc)

We have no real solutions so lets just keep throwing money at it...

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ooooo I smell another can to be opened. How would you raise this money to throw at it?

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Originally Posted by Chadwick

Ya know what, this argument is bullshit and the crux of the problem. If you think you are being treated unfairly by your employer you have a fantastic option to not put up with it in this society. GO WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE!!

Then maybe if that employer cant keep workers working, they will go out of business and it will take care of itself....wow what a concept who knew competition was good for workers too!!!

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I am a little confused. They didn't put up with it, they went on strike, and now everyone except scabs and people who crossed the picked line DID have to go work for someone else. On top of that, NWA had to sell to Delta, which screwed even more people over. To put the icing on the cake, the quality of service provided by the airline turned to shit compared to what it used to be.

As for the seniority based pay, even the hard worker is going to make more inside of most unions nowadays. Also, while yes, some workers do ride the gravy train of mediocrity there is still a very large portion of the work force that does their best solely out of good work ethic and the desire to better the company they work for. I guess I will say it again, but the union will not guarantee bad workers their job. Yes, it is hard to fire them, but companies can find ways to get rid of you. I have seen it on multiple occasions.

On a final note, if you don't want to work for a union then don't. It's as simple as that. And it would also be nice to stop grouping government funded unions with business funded unions. I don't see a single cent of your money in my benefits, they are provided to me by my company who is actually dominating our primary competitor despite our higher wages, pensions, and benefits.

And Jalexi, yes airlines are very heavily subsidized by the government now, but correct me if I am wrong in saying I am pretty sure that happened shortly after NWA went down the hole and other airlines were closely following. Regardless, we are paying the price either way; if the government didn't throw our tax dollars at it than ticket prices would have skyrocketed to keep companies in business.

P.S. Thanks for remembering the 200 bucks

I'm not as concerned with the money so much as the ramifications of the subsidizing. In a true laissez faire, free market system the destiny of those airlines would be left to the market to decide. Faced with the problem of maintaining the lifestyle to which the world has become accustomed, companies and innovators would be forced to actually develop new methods / technologies that actually resolve the problem instead of accepting the current conditions as unavoidable.

Look at spaceflight following NASA's announcement that following the upcoming shuttle launch all future manned space travel was being put on hiatus; although development had already been in the works, the announcement put the pressure on private industry to fill the gap with impressive results. SpaceX ended up getting the Dragon operational, with many other developers close behind.

Obviously the airline industry is a bit different, as it affects the lives of a much greater portion of the population but the idea remains the same. If we let the industry work the problems out, a lasting solution can be attained.


ps: np

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Originally Posted by Chadwick

2) You actually make my argument for me. People with too much time yet will not get fired, why? Because it is hard as hell to do so, and what will happen to a bad supervisor or sector of government if they are inefficient, nothing unless elected officials chose to do something about it. In the private sector, lax work behavior and poor managment causes companies to go out of business.

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It is not hard to do. If someone is clearly not doing their job over a substantial period of time (which I would call 6 months - 1 year), has complaints filed against them from coworkers, and/or is violating set policies, it would take very little effort to can their ass. It all depends on the supervisor. If they are also negligent, then nothing is getting done.

Then...the guy/gal goes and complains to their union and with almost no effort gets their job back. That is the reality of what happens. It takes multiple cases, each with substantial evidence and headaches for the employer dealing with the bullshit for HOURS of non-billable time.

Don't forget the back-pay the union member gets for not working while the union fights the dismissal!

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Originally Posted by kwiikz

I am a little confused. They didn't put up with it, they went on strike, and now everyone except scabs and people who crossed the picked line DID have to go work for someone else. On top of that, NWA had to sell to Delta, which screwed even more people over. To put the icing on the cake, the quality of service provided by the airline turned to shit compared to what it used to be.

As for the seniority based pay, even the hard worker is going to make more inside of most unions nowadays. Also, while yes, some workers do ride the gravy train of mediocrity there is still a very large portion of the work force that does their best solely out of good work ethic and the desire to better the company they work for. I guess I will say it again, but the union will not guarantee bad workers their job. Yes, it is hard to fire them, but companies can find ways to get rid of you. I have seen it on multiple occasions.

On a final note, if you don't want to work for a union then don't. It's as simple as that. And it would also be nice to stop grouping government funded unions with business funded unions. I don't see a single cent of your money in my benefits, they are provided to me by my company who is actually dominating our primary competitor despite our higher wages, pensions, and benefits.

And Jalexi, yes airlines are very heavily subsidized by the government now, but correct me if I am wrong in saying I am pretty sure that happened shortly after NWA went down the hole and other airlines were closely following. Regardless, we are paying the price either way; if the government didn't throw our tax dollars at it than ticket prices would have skyrocketed to keep companies in business.

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Going on strike and leaving for another employer are two very different things.

And what caused them to go down? For what people are willing to pay to fly they cannot pay the costs including labor, fuel, etc that it takes to do so...there is nothing in our constitution that says you have a right to cheap airfare....

I would never work a union job because unions force employers to promise the impossible and then are mad when the don't get it. Durring contract negotiation times unions can spew whatever nonsense and bullshit they want while employers have to be very careful what they say is 100% factual. Teachers unions say it is all about the kids when what it is really all about is their right to retire at 55 with full benefits and pension and then go work somewhere else while living on the public purse. Nurses say it is all about the patient but basically ignore the code of ethics they swore to when walking out on them forcing other hospital workers to pick up the slack. Which was mostly doctors and pharmacists (not replacement nurses). Its about the patients and the number of patients per nurse yet they agreed to a contract that did not affect that at all but did keep their pension...

Ya know what i say to that? Go fuck yourselves you lying twats...

Tell me this: Why did the big three automakers all basically have to get bailed out by the government (union outfits). When automakers like, Hyndai, Toyota, Honda, etc all hurt very little and for a very short time and are now again thriving?
Why did mazda's financial situation improve when ford sold the company back to them?

Why did the non-union airlines survive with much less or no subsidies when the big union ones were going under and needed saving?

And, dude, i hope you are not depending on your pension, if you in fact have one, because i guarantee you it wont be there when you retire...

Yet with all of my hate for unions i still think they have a place in the American private sector. IF and only if the company stands on its own as a private company. But, if any company is subsidized they should not be allowed to be unionized. It is a morally bankrupt conflict of interest where selfish people expect their neighbors who are all taking pay cuts and benefit cuts to keep theirs intact. But the pinnacle are public sector unions. That is the prime conflict of interest, and the only out that the taxpayers (which is only about half the populace now) have is to elect officials to do EXACTLY what they are doing in Wisconsin. I hope it happens and i hope every one of those sniveling, running scared democrat state senators gets fined at least and at best spend some time in prison for dereliction of duty.

Why do we as a country want to keep broken ideas and dysfunctional organizations alive? The best thing about this country is when a company or other entity stopped being effective and efficient. It died. And from those ashes BETTER companies are formed by people who saw or were a part of the problems, got a clean slate and a niche to fill and went after it making for an overall better economy and society...

It sounds like they passed a quick bill last night in WI that the senators that skipped town will not get their pay direct deposited but need to show up on the house floor to get a paper check. Holy shit they still get paid! If I skip a week of work not only do I not get paid but probably lose me job.

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Originally Posted by Chadwick

Then...the guy/gal goes and complains to their union and with almost no effort gets their job back. That is the reality of what happens. It takes multiple cases, each with substantial evidence and headaches for the employer dealing with the bullshit for HOURS of non-billable time.

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I have seen someone get fired in our section, and that is not what happened, and I am sure she was under some sort of government workers union. And I am fairly certain it was simply done due to negligence and slacking.

Granted that is the only person I have seen get fired in our section. But it is definitely not nearly as impossible as you make it sound.

If you've been lucky enough to be witness to the rare practice of firing a government worker, you've probably not been able to see the process that takes place after. If the person chooses to, they can file grievances and complaints with the union which then require the supervisor and sometimes multiple supervisors to appear and justify their reasons for firing the person.

So what happens is no one wants to deal with that headache so the only people you see getting fired are the ones that are the worst of the worst. If someone is just a little below average, it's not worth the hassle to try and replace them.

I've seen this first hand as my mother is a state worker. She has someone in her own department who does maybe 5-10% of the work in the department with my mother and the other worker there splitting the remaining 90-95%. This woman has been there 20+ years and there is no getting rid of her.

In the state system to most common way of getting rid of a problem worker is recommending them for a promotion in another department or location. :D